Ted Cruz Criticized for Naming "Watchmen" Character as One of His Favorite Superheroes

[CSTowle]

I'd agree, I think they're both trying to present the best argument for their side ideally and practically that can lead to shady behavior but no more or no less from either side (just different varieties of shady behavior).

[Arvandor]

He literally saves the world from nuclear destruction. Rorschach is trying to stop that and take the world with him as sort of a sick suicide. The point of Watchmen is that the real world answers aren't found in black and white comic book morality. But also that superhero comics need it because otherwise troubling inconsistencies are uncovered.

Perhaps. But let's tweak the ending just slightly. Just ever so slightly.

Rather than three million random New Yorkers, let's say that Ozymandias' plan was to instead kill, say, six million Jews. Would that have been an acceptable compromise, for peace in our time?

[CSTowle]

I think if you're willing to kill 3 million people to save 7 billion (assuming you believe his plan was going to work), another 3 million (regardless of religion/ethnicity/etc.) wouldn't be a deal breaker.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Perhaps. But let's tweak the ending just slightly. Just ever so slightly.

Rather than three million random New Yorkers, let's say that Ozymandias' plan was to instead kill, say, six million Jews. Would that have been an acceptable compromise, for peace in our time?

I know you're trying to go Godwin here and make a clumsy comparison to Hitler. Bad form, but let's go with it and say Ozymandias calculated that the only place to strike to save the world was Israel.

If he didn't, all of those people would have died anyway. So it comes down the same cold calculation, kill a few people who would be dead within days anyway to save everyone else. I don't think it would have made a difference.

[Totoro Man]

Partisan... I'm not even American. Democrat, Republican; I have no horse in the race.

Stupid is stupid and choosing an incredibly simple children's book to illustrate your point that gives anyone familiar with the book (which is everyone according to you) the impression you have misunderstood the book's incredibly simple message is a terrible PR decision (granted one that probably wasn't made by Cruz himself, though he certainly gave it the go ahead). And like it or not an great amount of thought goes into how politicians present themselves to the public. Its not just a case of 'how can I get people to notice me today?'.

If you cannot see the value in carrying a conversation beyond the point where two people disagree, then I truly feel sorry for you.

so "Watchmen" is now an incredibly simple children's book? this is a book with numerous murders, sexual content, and tons of violence. while not as violent as "Clockwork Orange" I still wouldn't classify it as a "simple children's book". it does have a very adolescent approach to morality and philosophy.

I wasn't sold on the Veidt "saving the world" 20 years ago... and I'm still not convinced. the ending is ambiguous enough where you can legitimately dispute whether or not Veidt's genocidal campaign was successful or not. personally, I think his plan was doomed from the start. it was based on assumptions that nuclear war was inevitable and that a new common threat would be enough, in and of itself, to stop people from fighting each other.

but that's not really how things work out. just look at the Balkans in World War 2. even though the Chetniks and the Communists both hated the German occupation of Yugoslavia this didn't stop them from killing each other as well as the Germans.

[Malvolio]

I'm not sure that shgs was referring to Watchmen as "an incredibly simple children's book." I think he may have been referring to when Ted Cruz referenced Green Eggs and Ham on the Senate floor.

[Shawn Hopkins]

It doesn't matter if you're sold, you're told straight up. Doctor Manhattan can see the future. He knows that a war is inevitable, his entire arc is about whether he cares enough to do anything about it. He also kills Rorschach to protect Veidt's plan because revealing it and going back to the old status quo would be too dangerous.

[Totoro Man]

if war is, as you say, truly inevitable then it can't be stopped-- not even by Veidt's elaborate plan. all Veidt can do is alter the timeline where the war starts and ends.

Manhattan even tells Veidt "'In the end'? Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends." this line of dialogue undermines the credibility of Veidt's plan to save the world. if you combine that with the discovery of Rorschach's journal by the press-- then the implication is that the prospect of war is still in the future (albeit reduced). Manhattan could have told Veidt that he HAD done the right thing. he could have confirmed that he HAD saved the world. but Manhattan doesn't do this. we are, in fact, told straight up something that directly contradicts what Veidt believed was going to happen: the end of the world.

if Manhattan can see the future why didn't he destroy Rorschach's journal before it could reach the press? this would have presented a possible threat to the ultimate success of Veidt's plan.... in some ways it's almost worse than allowing Rorschach to live. (Rorschach, after all, is a pretty unpleasant fellow)

"Watchmen" is a very polarizing book-- and I've seen many, many debates about it. the fact that people can still strongly disagree over the exact nature and meaning of the book's ending makes me think that, whether intentional or not, the ending was left ambiguous and open to interpretation. Moore is a skilled enough writer, who was deliberately trying to create a sense of uneasiness with the story, probably did this on purpose. I think settling on one "correct" answer for the ending actually diminishes the book as a work of art.

it's like all the people who want a clear-cut ending for the film "Inception"-- when it was designed to be layered and ambiguous from start to finish. that ambivalence/ambiguity on a narrative and meta-narrative level is part of what makes "Watchmen" such an interesting story.