Why didn't Marvel push Monica Rambeau as Captain Marvel

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

ASMAnn16 Captain Marvel woman.jpg
Silver and black are not bad!!!

[Inhuman X]

Well, it seems Monica as Spectrum will be competing for her name again with the new Doctor Spectrum (a female reinterpretation of the original) that will of course often just be called Spectrum as well... I guess it really is 2015 and all the names have been copy righted. Maybe she should just go by Booty491 or Light_Princess22 or something?

[Triniking1234]

I always thought Monica's new code-name was "Photon".

[Darthfury78]

Ironic that Monica was a ASM created character whose was never used in the regular publication of ASM.

[Vic Vega]

I think it's the powers. Not their level, but their nature.

IMO, it's easier to sell a superhero concept as a stand-alone lead when the powers are visceral, involving punching/kicking and resisting punches/kicks, than when they are more esoteric. If the character can energy blast too, fine, but it's probably easier to get TPTB to buy into images of a hero punching a bad guy through a wall or vice versa.

Think carefully about the characters that have been able to maintain on-going solo titles over the years. Except for very special cases (Dr. Strange), all of them have had some kind of hand-to-hand technique as a central part of their schtick. Even DC's Green Lantern is rendered as punching with an extendable energy appendage in a lot of his fights.

I have always loved Monica and her powers, and always hated the continual claim-jumping of her names. She just has the misfortune of being an energy hero in a genre of brawling goons.

There was a Monica one-shot in the 90's where her powers were changed to something like Nova's (high speed flight, super strength, force-field). I always wonder why they chaged them back to be honest.

I know many saw it as a depowering (which it techinically was), but as you mentioned, punch and kickers do better than point and blasters as solo heroes.

Especally among Marvel fans.

[JudicatorPrime]

There was a Monica one-shot in the 90's where her powers were changed to something like Nova's (high speed flight, super strength, force-field). I always wonder why they chaged them back to be honest.

I know many saw it as a depowering (which it technically was), but as you mentioned, punch and kickers do better than point and blasters as solo heroes.

Especally among Marvel fans.

Ewing is doing a masterful job of expanding on the nature of Monica's powers, in part because he hasn't abandoned the notion that Monica's abilities are tied to a mysterious extradimensional source. For all we know, Monica could be somehow quantum entangled with the event that first gave the Beyonders a glimpse into our universe. Her electromagnetic abilities could be the initial manifestation of something greater to come.

Maybe she gets there. Maybe she doesn't. The potential is intriguing. It reminds me of the math flashcards that I gave my nephew back when he was a little tyke. Now he's all grown up and pursuing his Masters in Physics. Maybe manipulating electromagnetic energy is Monica's version of basic math flashcard exercises. Who knows? I don't think anyone would be too upset if it led to feats of Monica kicking butt literally from time to time.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

I hated that time when Capt.Marvel Once leader of the Avengers was standing around as some anonymous person. She did nothing of note, until The Stranger gave her back her original power set in Quasar's series, but even then it still wasn't enough and she disappeared again. Thank God for Warren Ellis and the Nextwave series.

Fun and intrigue put back into Captain Marvel for sure!

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

Sad, forgotten but always prominent


http://io9.com/the-unfortunate-and-o...eau-1726108988

Captain Marvel has taken her abysmal treatment by marvel comics with her importance of Captain Marvel preserved and acknowledgement of the very first Captain Marvel woman intact!

[JaggedFel]

Cause she is Black?

[Hrist]

I don't see how Carol's history with the original Captain Marvel is even important. Monica was already "Captain Marvel" while Carol was Ms Marvel back then.

Monica actually led the Avengers and was already a fairly high profile character. I would even argue she was much more prominent in the 1980s than Carol Danvers. Marvel could have easily pushed Monica as their "premiere" female character (like they are doing with Carol now) but for some reason as soon as Monica was taken off the Avengers they dropped her profile.

What happened to Monica in the 1980s was similar to what happened to Carol in the 1970s: written out of the Avengers book in a story with shady politics. The difference is that Carol had Chris Claremont swoop in and rehabilitate her a little in the X-books he had more or less total control over. Monica, OTOH, was jobbed by the EiC of Marvel, alienating her major caretaker. The attempts to rehabilitate Monica (like McDuffie depowering her so it would be harder for others to write her as incompetent) were less successful and less part of a classic run like Claremont's on X-men. I think you could also say something about how the Carol Strickland's Rape of Ms. Marvel essay and then Avengers Annual #10 made Carol's mistreatment a major part of (women in) comics lore, but the total trashing of Monica Rambeau is out there but more obscure for whatever reason. (Partly because of the surrounding Marvel politics, but partly because Carol's been pushed so much this past decade+ as well.)

I can't believe people are still commenting on this thread and also acting like it's Carol's fault that Monica lost the codename and her position instead of STEVE ROGERS!

There's a lot of weird discussion here about Carol's comparative popularity when the more interesting point of conversation is how the all-consuming need to have Steve at the forefront of everything is what ruined Monica's (very good) chance at popularity in the first place.

THIS X1000. If you're going to blame a fictional character (and not editorial decisions) for Monica's fall from prominence, it's 100% Steve Rogers, not Carol. By the time Carol was promoted as Captain Marvel, the legacy had drifted through several more characters, including Phyla-Vell who never gets brought up in these conversations even though she's also been written out of the movies, &c. When Monica was being built up in the Avengers titles, Carol was in the X-books/in space/doing stuff as Binary— though the Avengers book had definitely tried to push Carol into limbo earlier, Monica's rise was independent, creator-driven and not related to Carol in any way. Then both characters fell into limbo and the Captain Marvel codename got passed on to a whole slew of successors, because Marvel has an incentive to keep the codename active.

Carol's push in the early 2000s grew out of Busiek's Avengers run, where her alcoholism was introduced and she took the new name Warbird. So, you know, there was no intention of her stealing the codename and spotlight from Monica, there. Her second ongoing series grew out of House of M, and this is when I think you see Marvel beginning to consider Carol their top tier heroine. She was "Captain Marvel" in the House of M reality, but it doesn't seem like they had any plans to give her the codename in this one, or if some creators did, they were overruled by other directions, like the Gravity thing or what was going on w/Marvel cosmic. The reversion to the old Ms. Marvel codename was definitely to give her more of a connection to the #brand, and she even had a publicist in the early days of that book coaching her as a sort of meta-joke. But imo, while it's not exactly a coincidence Marvel chose an attractive blonde lady to push as their big name lady hero, Carol's initial push came more from her strength-and-flying powerset but also her established connections with both the X and Avengers sides of the universe, back when the mutants were still the major focus pre-MCU. Carol's continuing push, and the movie especially, is because she's got connections with the Avengers stuff and cosmic stuff through her Kree DNA, basically linking the two big MCU worlds.

I've always felt Ellis's handling of Monica in Nextwave was sort of a long, bitter joke about how she'd been swept under the rug. When Steve tells Monica to go make him a sandwich or whatever in flashback, I always took that as a direct commentary on why she really left the Avengers. But since the mid-2000s & Nextwave, Monica's been appearing more and more. She's been a major character in a bunch of (not always terrific) minis, and more recently Ewing has given her a regular gig in an ongoing book again. This, incidentally, started happening at the same time Marvel's been pushing Carol Danvers. I think it's fair to say that Marvel's been doing a lot more to push Carol than push Monica, but it's hard to argue Monica has suffered from Carol becoming Captain Marvel when she's had her best writing in years in the books that have come out since Carol became Captain Marvel. It's almost as though the two characters can co-exist, because they have separate powers, origins, personalities, and purposes, and are more than just two blank slates fighting for the same codename.

The Carol v Monica thing is harmful to both characters, because it basically requires you to ignore their individual publishing histories and circumstances in order to perpetuate the artificial competition that exists between female characters because we've been led to assume only one can be marketed at a time. Meanwhile, Marvel's need to make Steve Rogers the moral center of everything is just sort of unremarked on, taken as the natural status quo vs Carol's ~artificial push.

[Myetche]

I've always felt Ellis's handling of Monica in Nextwave was sort of a long, bitter joke about how she'd been swept under the rug.

If anything, Nextwave pretty much wrecked Monica as a character, as she got portrayed as a washed-up has-been who can't let go of her one single past achievement (leading the Avengers).

[Hrist]

If anything, Nextwave pretty much wrecked Monica as a character, as she got portrayed as a washed-up has-been who can't let go of her one single past achievement (leading the Avengers).

I don't think so. I mean, I don't think Nextwave Monica is a viable character outside of Nextwave, which reduced all of its characters to hyperbolic punchlines but (imo) still made them weirdly charming. But Nextwave's cult status got the character more exposure and she's appeared in more stuff since then.

[Myetche]

I don't think so. I mean, I don't think Nextwave Monica is a viable character outside of Nextwave, which reduced all of its characters to hyperbolic punchlines but (imo) still made them weirdly charming. But Nextwave's cult status got the character more exposure and she's appeared in more stuff since then.

More exposure was the only good thing that came out of Nextwave for Monica.

[THANOSRULES]

What happened to Monica in the 1980s was similar to what happened to Carol in the 1970s: written out of the Avengers book in a story with shady politics. The difference is that Carol had Chris Claremont swoop in and rehabilitate her a little in the X-books he had more or less total control over. Monica, OTOH, was jobbed by the EiC of Marvel, alienating her major caretaker. The attempts to rehabilitate Monica (like McDuffie depowering her so it would be harder for others to write her as incompetent) were less successful and less part of a classic run like Claremont's on X-men. I think you could also say something about how the Carol Strickland's Rape of Ms. Marvel essay and then Avengers Annual #10 made Carol's mistreatment a major part of (women in) comics lore, but the total trashing of Monica Rambeau is out there but more obscure for whatever reason. (Partly because of the surrounding Marvel politics, but partly because Carol's been pushed so much this past decade+ as well.)



THIS X1000. If you're going to blame a fictional character (and not editorial decisions) for Monica's fall from prominence, it's 100% Steve Rogers, not Carol. By the time Carol was promoted as Captain Marvel, the legacy had drifted through several more characters, including Phyla-Vell who never gets brought up in these conversations even though she's also been written out of the movies, &c. When Monica was being built up in the Avengers titles, Carol was in the X-books/in space/doing stuff as Binary— though the Avengers book had definitely tried to push Carol into limbo earlier, Monica's rise was independent, creator-driven and not related to Carol in any way. Then both characters fell into limbo and the Captain Marvel codename got passed on to a whole slew of successors, because Marvel has an incentive to keep the codename active.

Carol's push in the early 2000s grew out of Busiek's Avengers run, where her alcoholism was introduced and she took the new name Warbird. So, you know, there was no intention of her stealing the codename and spotlight from Monica, there. Her second ongoing series grew out of House of M, and this is when I think you see Marvel beginning to consider Carol their top tier heroine. She was "Captain Marvel" in the House of M reality, but it doesn't seem like they had any plans to give her the codename in this one, or if some creators did, they were overruled by other directions, like the Gravity thing or what was going on w/Marvel cosmic. The reversion to the old Ms. Marvel codename was definitely to give her more of a connection to the #brand, and she even had a publicist in the early days of that book coaching her as a sort of meta-joke. But imo, while it's not exactly a coincidence Marvel chose an attractive blonde lady to push as their big name lady hero, Carol's initial push came more from her strength-and-flying powerset but also her established connections with both the X and Avengers sides of the universe, back when the mutants were still the major focus pre-MCU. Carol's continuing push, and the movie especially, is because she's got connections with the Avengers stuff and cosmic stuff through her Kree DNA, basically linking the two big MCU worlds.

I've always felt Ellis's handling of Monica in Nextwave was sort of a long, bitter joke about how she'd been swept under the rug. When Steve tells Monica to go make him a sandwich or whatever in flashback, I always took that as a direct commentary on why she really left the Avengers. But since the mid-2000s & Nextwave, Monica's been appearing more and more. She's been a major character in a bunch of (not always terrific) minis, and more recently Ewing has given her a regular gig in an ongoing book again. This, incidentally, started happening at the same time Marvel's been pushing Carol Danvers. I think it's fair to say that Marvel's been doing a lot more to push Carol than push Monica, but it's hard to argue Monica has suffered from Carol becoming Captain Marvel when she's had her best writing in years in the books that have come out since Carol became Captain Marvel. It's almost as though the two characters can co-exist, because they have separate powers, origins, personalities, and purposes, and are more than just two blank slates fighting for the same codename.

The Carol v Monica thing is harmful to both characters, because it basically requires you to ignore their individual publishing histories and circumstances in order to perpetuate the artificial competition that exists between female characters because we've been led to assume only one can be marketed at a time. Meanwhile, Marvel's need to make Steve Rogers the moral center of everything is just sort of unremarked on, taken as the natural status quo vs Carol's ~artificial push.

I'm sorry your going to have to explain to me about the 80s as some dark time for Monica when she was created, put right into Avengers, and eventually ascended to lead of the team during that time. Their is a fundamental strangeness to saying a character got "jobbed" when she was plugged right into the A-list team and eventually, given command.

At first , I found Monica a generic superhero, with strange powers and also found it a detriment she had no real connection with Marvel cosmic, Mar-Vell etc.. In all honesty she felt force fed as well, but at the time I had no grasp of "PC" stuff so that was actually no basis of my wishy washy ness. Most of all, I was always luke warm on her.

Roger Stern's run was known for going outside the box with other characters aside from Steve Rogers, yeah the end of the 80s featured a return for Steve to the (Byrne) Avengers...but it also ended with the John Walker arc, which took Steve out of the picture for a while. Right away, a few early 90s events like Operation Galactic Storm actually were really negative Steve Rogers arcs that portrayed him as overly self righteous and almost incompetent. (IMO)

Also, we had the rise of Quasar in the Avengers..who certainly hurt her roll.

BTW the article floating on the net also completely disregards that Starlin Captain Marvel was much more popular for a stretch than it let on, how Carol Danvers got jobbed out of being the OG legacy for Marvel, which should have happened. Despite what you say, it happened a long time before Monica, i think its valid. But it probably was just not stressed about because Carol was not a very popular character at all until like you say, nearly Busiek's run.


Let's not get into how the article paints a completely revisionist portrait of Genis-Vell, who largely worked, had a very critically and sales successful PAD run, that is until Joe Quesada ascended to the helm of EiC, decided to character assassinate Genis and made him broken.

Monica Rambeau is a solid character, she's had regular appearances, and she's solidly in Marvel's future plans. Thats call to celebrate but I personally don't see her as overly jobbed.

[Carabas]

If anything, Nextwave pretty much wrecked Monica as a character, as she got portrayed as a washed-up has-been who can't let go of her one single past achievement (leading the Avengers).

It was a comedy, one that the writer never intended to be even remotely in continuity.