Captain Marvel / Shazam Appreciaton

[maxmcco]

By the point the story left off at, Billy wasn't caustic or bratty, so there'd be no reason to change anything in the upcoming run. And as mentioned multiple times, he wasn't nearly as bad as reactions blew out of proportion, and it was justified towards the story and it didn't last long at all. Of note, throughout the story, Billy was more characterized by his self-doubt and worry that he works to overcome than any caustic-ness, anyway.

People love to cite that director/writer, but given the context of the book's story, I feel he's just doing PR for those who did have that kneejerk reaction and never let it go. There really isn't anything that needs to be "toned down", especially at the risk of potentially undermining that part of Billy's character arc of him accepting his new family as a family in the movie. Regardless however, functionally speaking, I doubt the young Billy at the start of the movie will be that much removed to Billy at the start of the book, particularly with how close they seem to be following the plot (a lack of Black Adam and Sivana in his place aside).

I enjoyed Johns' Shazam backups a lot. But I feel his character portrayals in that story were often far too broad and lacked subtlety. Maybe it was out of necessity due to the limited amount of pages to establish what he wanted to get across. I agree the movie will likely take Billy on the same character arc journey, but it'll probably be written with more nuance and space to breathe. Now that Shazam is getting his own comic and Johns seems to be in for the long haul, I hope his character development for all the heroes and villains is more of a slow burn.

[Ascended]

I enjoyed Johns' Shazam backups a lot. But I feel his character portrayals in that story were often far too broad and lacked subtlety.

Ha, I feel like this is every character Johns has ever written.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I love a lot of his work. Most of it, in fact. But dude is about as subtle as the Bat Signal.

I agree the movie will likely take Billy on the same character arc journey, but it'll probably be written with more nuance and space to breathe. Now that Shazam is getting his own comic and Johns seems to be in for the long haul, I hope his character development for all the heroes and villains is more of a slow burn.

Agreed. The beats will play out a little differently, but it's going to be the same song.

And speaking of Johns not being very subtle.....You know, one thing I never see anyone mention when talking about New52 Billy and how "bratty" he is...is the larger context of the scenes where it happens. Everyone who has read the story knows that this attitude doesn't last. In fact, you mostly only see it to any kind of real degree when Billy is dealing with the old lady from the foster system or the rich guy and his d-bag kids. And that woman is a horrible person! Look at her dialogue! The Harry Potter parallels are obvious in this story, and that woman is Billy's Professor Umbridge. And the rich guy? Obviously Old Man Malfoy. A big chunk of Billy's attitude that everyone complains about is Billy "fighting" his earliest villains, and I'm not sure how anyone expects a little kid to fight back against adults he can't do anything to, if not by being a brat.

[dswynne]

Can't wait.

[J. D. Guy]

I enjoyed Johns' Shazam backups a lot. But I feel his character portrayals in that story were often far too broad and lacked subtlety. Maybe it was out of necessity due to the limited amount of pages to establish what he wanted to get across. I agree the movie will likely take Billy on the same character arc journey, but it'll probably be written with more nuance and space to breathe. Now that Shazam is getting his own comic and Johns seems to be in for the long haul, I hope his character development for all the heroes and villains is more of a slow burn.

For the first story, indeed they did require firm, non-wishy-washy strides to keep pace with the amount of time and pages while still keeping to the points they wanted to tell and explore. I'd argue (well, not especially, but you get the expression) that despite this, the portrayals did come off as nuanced in the first story (the Vasquez couple scene after Mr. Vasquez and Billy came home from school, one of my favorites from the first book, is but one example, to say nothing of Billy's entire dynamic character arc). The movie can't spend eternity telling its story either, though, so do be mindful of that going in.

As for the new book, since the writer is seemingly it in for the long haul and since the story will be in a standard comics format of 22-ish pages per issue, they can afford more room to tell their stories.


As an aside, it always makes me interested to learn about story reading perspectives. I can appreciate the necessirty of brevity in whichever form it may take, myself, but regardless have always felt that I was the only one who appreciated, and for that matter actually liked, a slow-burning story. In today's comics environment, slow-burning stories that are filled with goodies can be a risky approach, since the threat of cancellation can ruin many a cool long-form story plans (soooo many of my favorite comics these last 5 or so years have been cut short because of that; Scott Lobdell's Doomed is just a single mere example of one such story, but I could go on ) and I get the feeling based on comments I've read here and elsewhere that the average contemporary reader doesn't really care for slow-burners. They usually say things to the effect of "Nothing's going on!" or "It took too long to happen!" or scream the dreaded "f" word.

[J. D. Guy]

And speaking of Johns not being very subtle.....You know, one thing I never see anyone mention when talking about New52 Billy and how "bratty" he is...is the larger context of the scenes where it happens. Everyone who has read the story knows that this attitude doesn't last. In fact, you mostly only see it to any kind of real degree when Billy is dealing with the old lady from the foster system or the rich guy and his d-bag kids. And that woman is a horrible person! Look at her dialogue! The Harry Potter parallels are obvious in this story, and that woman is Billy's Professor Umbridge. And the rich guy? Obviously Old Man Malfoy. A big chunk of Billy's attitude that everyone complains about is Billy "fighting" his earliest villains, and I'm not sure how anyone expects a little kid to fight back against adults he can't do anything to, if not by being a brat.

Pretty cool notice!

The spoiled rich father of the spoiled rich kids were super obvious targets, but the caretaker lady, hadn't considered that.

[Gamma Burst]

Ha, I feel like this is every character Johns has ever written.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I love a lot of his work. Most of it, in fact. But dude is about as subtle as the Bat Signal.



Agreed. The beats will play out a little differently, but it's going to be the same song.

And speaking of Johns not being very subtle.....You know, one thing I never see anyone mention when talking about New52 Billy and how "bratty" he is...is the larger context of the scenes where it happens. Everyone who has read the story knows that this attitude doesn't last. In fact, you mostly only see it to any kind of real degree when Billy is dealing with the old lady from the foster system or the rich guy and his d-bag kids. And that woman is a horrible person! Look at her dialogue! The Harry Potter parallels are obvious in this story, and that woman is Billy's Professor Umbridge. And the rich guy? Obviously Old Man Malfoy. A big chunk of Billy's attitude that everyone complains about is Billy "fighting" his earliest villains, and I'm not sure how anyone expects a little kid to fight back against adults he can't do anything to, if not by being a brat.

Very well said.

[SilverWarriorWolf]

And speaking of Johns not being very subtle.....You know, one thing I never see anyone mention when talking about New52 Billy and how "bratty" he is...is the larger context of the scenes where it happens. Everyone who has read the story knows that this attitude doesn't last. In fact, you mostly only see it to any kind of real degree when Billy is dealing with the old lady from the foster system or the rich guy and his d-bag kids. And that woman is a horrible person! Look at her dialogue! The Harry Potter parallels are obvious in this story, and that woman is Billy's Professor Umbridge. And the rich guy? Obviously Old Man Malfoy. A big chunk of Billy's attitude that everyone complains about is Billy "fighting" his earliest villains, and I'm not sure how anyone expects a little kid to fight back against adults he can't do anything to, if not by being a brat.

Speakings as someone who has criticized his depiction of Billy, examples of what I have a problem are more from his interactions with Mary:

B9B4108B-E29A-4565-8204-551125CEDDBA.jpg

And Freddy:

AD6BDFD2-41A1-4B59-AB09-273F1670BEEE.jpg

The whole “there are no good people” speech (despite the Vasquez family sans him and perhaps Freddy proving it untrue) also left a sour taste in my mouth.

I know he improves, but these sort of scenes makes it hard for me to sympathize with him all that much. If you can, that’s alright. It’s just an opinion.

The fight scene I thought was awesome. I had no problem whatsoever with his fighting the bullies. I know some people did, but I think they’re being too uptight.

As for the social worker, how is she Umbridge like? Sure, she seemed unpleasant, but Umbridge was a bit more than unpleasant (torture scenes?)

For the first story, indeed they did require firm, non-wishy-washy strides to keep pace with the amount of time and pages while still keeping to the points they wanted to tell and explore. I'd argue (well, not especially, but you get the expression) that despite this, the portrayals did come off as nuanced in the first story (the Vasquez couple scene after Mr. Vasquez and Billy came home from school, one of my favorites from the first book, is but one example, to say nothing of Billy's entire dynamic character arc).

I agree that bit with the Vasquezes was great. I hope they stay on as characters.

[SiegePerilous02]

Speakings as someone who has criticized his depiction of Billy, examples of what I have a problem are more from his interactions with Mary:



B9B4108B-E29A-4565-8204-551125CEDDBA.jpg

His conversation with Mary is what prompts him to feel guilty about what he said to Darla, so that scene shows that Mary got through to him on some level. It should also be noted that the Vasquez's say Mary had a similar attitude when she first arrived in their home, and she turned out ok. I think we're meant to assume that Billy will end up in a similar emotional place.

As for the social worker, how is she Umbridge like? Sure, she seemed unpleasant, but Umbridge was a bit more than unpleasant (torture scenes?)

I definitely wouldn't call her an Umbridge, but she was pretty upfront about wanting to get rid of this orphaned kid she was responsible for and telling him he was the most unpleasant person she'd ever met. I don't really have much sympathy towards her when he chooses to sass back at her. Any distrust he had towards the Vasquezes didn't last that long because they showed they would treat him and the other kids better than her and any other families he ended up with.

[phantom1592]

I definitely wouldn't call her an Umbridge, but she was pretty upfront about wanting to get rid of this orphaned kid she was responsible for and telling him he was the most unpleasant person she'd ever met. I don't really have much sympathy towards her when he chooses to sass back at her. Any distrust he had towards the Vasquezes didn't last that long because they showed they would treat him and the other kids better than her and any other families he ended up with.

I cut her some serious slack. First of all, It's her job to get rid of the orphaned kids and get them in good homes. So I can't fault her for doing her job. Secondly, It was at least implied (don't have the book in front of me) that he's run this rodeo before. He's been in and out of homes and actively tries to sabotage her doing her job. They're old adversaries working against each other... So yeah... she may be unpleasant and not very nice... I also got the feeling she was at the end of her rope there. Not 'evil' at all.

[SilverWarriorWolf]

I definitely wouldn't call her an Umbridge, but she was pretty upfront about wanting to get rid of this orphaned kid she was responsible for and telling him he was the most unpleasant person she'd ever met. I don't really have much sympathy towards her when he chooses to sass back at her. Any distrust he had towards the Vasquezes didn't last that long because they showed they would treat him and the other kids better than her and any other families he ended up with.

I would completely agree with you. The person I was commenting to compared her to Umbridge, though, so I wanted to know if I was missing anything.

[Konja7]

In my case, I'm pretty interested to read more stories of Shazam and his family.

Shazam and Billy in New 52 is the first story of the character I read. So, I have no previous perception about the character.

I just really like the story.

I cut her some serious slack. First of all, It's her job to get rid of the orphaned kids and get them in good homes. So I can't fault her for doing her job. Secondly, It was at least implied (don't have the book in front of me) that he's run this rodeo before. He's been in and out of homes and actively tries to sabotage her doing her job. They're old adversaries working against each other... So yeah... she may be unpleasant and not very nice... I also got the feeling she was at the end of her rope there. Not 'evil' at all.

That's true.

I suspect that's the impression the comic wants convey in that scene. She can be stern, but Billy must have been problematic for her.

[Ascended]

The person I was commenting to compared her to Umbridge, though, so I wanted to know if I was missing anything.

Well, I say this woman is Billy's Umbridge because she fills a similar niche in the setting; she's the adult in the dynamic, has power over the child's living situation, and is mistreating that authority and abusing the child.

Umbridge ran the school Harry lived at and made his life hell. The foster care woman appears to have been deeply involved in Billy's life, and made his life hell. And because the women have such power over them, the only thing Harry and Billy can do to fight back is be bratty. Billy tried running away, Harry started an army of child soldiers. The familiarity both the old woman and Billy treat their interactions tells us that this is not an isolated outburst from a woman struggling with a difficult kid. This is their status quo. And we're told that Billy has given her problems in the past so he's not innocent here but just from the small bit we see, we can tell that this woman insults Billy on a regular basis. It might be verbal abuse, but even if its not that bad, it's not helping the child. Billy being a d-bag......if you work in that system, you deal with d-bag kids, so the old woman has no excuse here. She's certainly dealt with d-bag kids her entire career, and you can't handle them like that.

Now, this isn't a perfect analogy of course. Umbridge was a real monster and the main villain of book five, while this foster care woman is just a minor character we see for a brief moment. They're not the same character, but they're cut from the same cloth and have similar roles in the story; the bitch in the system who screws with the young hero.

[Vordan]

It’s a bit flawed because Billy himself is no Harry at the start. He’s a bit of a little sh** to be honest. But he matures a lot and even before he gets his powers he’s still willing to stand up for Freddy. By the end of the story he’s become a better person, a good person, even though he’s not as pure as the Fawcett version.

[Gamma Burst]

It’s a bit flawed because Billy himself is no Harry at the start. He’s a bit of a little sh** to be honest. But he matures a lot and even before he gets his powers he’s still willing to stand up for Freddy. By the end of the story he’s become a better person, a good person, even though he’s not as pure as the Fawcett version.

The naysayers - or the people who decided to hate it - completely ignore this (conveniently?).

[Ascended]

It’s a bit flawed because Billy himself is no Harry at the start. He’s a bit of a little sh** to be honest. But he matures a lot and even before he gets his powers he’s still willing to stand up for Freddy. By the end of the story he’s become a better person, a good person, even though he’s not as pure as the Fawcett version.

Of course it's flawed. Most analogies like this are (I did say it wasn't perfect lol ). Of course, Potter was no saint either, and by the ever-so-polite standards of the British, he and Billy might be on closer terms than we'd think.

As it is, we really have no frame of reference for what Billy was usually like before the Vasquez family. All we get is Billy being rude to a woman who has mistreated him on a regular basis for a unknown length of time, and Billy being rude to a bunch of strangers he was basically forced to live with. We don't see what Billy was like in the foster system, or with other families, or with other kids he had known for more than five seconds, etc. Clearly the New52 Billy is way rougher around the edges than the original, but we can't really say with any clarity just how different he was under "normal" circumstances.