Captain Marvel / Shazam Appreciaton

[AcesX1X]

So, Arnie Hammer as Shazam? I definitely can see it.

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/dwayne...-hammer-shazam

Peace

yeah i think its a good choice too! but one thing is that superman has been promoting army on instagram as gl not shazam ... so what do you think is really going on?

[Zero Hunter]

I was thinking and the kid who played Mike on Stranger Things (Finn Wolfhard) could be a really good Billy Batson. The right age and the right look.

[Nomads1]

yeah i think its a good choice too! but one thing is that superman has been promoting army on instagram as gl not shazam ... so what do you think is really going on?

As the Rock said, nothing is set yet, but I think it'd be a good choice, though I'm sure he'd nail Hal Jordan too.

Peace

[Ares]

So, Arnie Hammer as Shazam? I definitely can see it.

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/dwayne...-hammer-shazam

Peace

Huh. Well, he's got the height, could likely Chris Evans himself into amazing shape, and he seems comfortable playing heroes with a sense of nobility and humor, so . . . . yeah, I could see this.

[dswynne]

Nope. Because we're talking about two different things.

I'm saying that if I'm introducing characters to the Marvel Family, I'm introducing them as fully fleshed out individuals, with an actual identity, personality, motivation, and purpose for the story, plans for future stories, and an actual idea for how the characters interact with each other. They'd be designed to actually have a point following the opening story and would be designed in a way that, if popular enough, they could support their own series. I'm looking to genuinely expand the Marvel Family with original content.

Nope, it's the exactly what we're talking about. Your criticism of CoS, besides the depiction of Billy Batson, was that the kids were not fully fleshed out to begin with. In fact, no character at the start of any series is fully fleshed out, which is why story arcs are important. Even Captain Marvel, as with many staple characters, had to go through the usual process of character development, in order to be fully fleshed out. Otherwise, a character rings hollow to a reader. Besides, the fact that you used the term "Cursed Kids", undermines your argument you might have in having a reasonable discussion on whether or not the kids, outside of Billy, Mary and Freddy, can have the actual character development they deserve. Sorry, but, in my opinion, there is no wasted character; just wasted potential for growth (prime example of the opposite: Harley Quinn, Lobo, Red Hood and Booster Gold, to name a few, who went from tetiary characters to name-brand characters that ended up having their own series...because their characters were fleshed out to be something more). Sorry, but that doesn't quite wash.

What you're asking for is someone to take these three character sketches that their owner discarded and do something with them. And I understand, you want more diversity in the Marvel Family, and these characters are at least a token effort at that. But that's all they are, token efforts that were designed to fill a space, a racial box and a plot role and nothing else. They were essentially plot points that existed in the story to make Billy feel bad for being rude to them (and thus show that he wasn't a complete jerk), to show up and hang around him long enough for him to consider them family (and thus teach him what family truly means in the shortest and least subtle way possible), and to fight the Seven Deadly Sins while Billy fights Adam (which was largely pointless in and of itself and could have been written out of the story with little consequence). And after their role in the story was done, their creator was done with them and never used them again.

You can say that about a number of characters from the Fawcett Comics line that we never saw in the main DCU, as of yet, but I bet you'd be the first one to welcome into fold, as "modern" incarnations. Then again, not to sure if I want "Steamboat Wille" to reappear...EVER again. But knowing you, you probably want him back, albeit done in the way that Darwyn Cook improved the depiction of Ebony White ("The Spirit").

And it doesn't end with the Cursed Kids, the entire Geoff Johns Marvel Family was slapped in as quickly as possible and then forgotten about by Johns, because he had no use for them. His goal was to introduce them as quickly as possible, get the plot over, and then bring Cap into the DCU.

This is one of the few things we agree on. I still razz on Geoff Johns' Twitter feed about this on occasion...

In the Golden Age, Freddy was introduced as part of an ongoing story, the victim of a conflict between Billy and Captain Nazi, whose grandfather was killed and who himself was mortally wounded, and only by Cap sharing his power with him was his life spared. Freddy was empowered and jumped immediately into his own series of adventures. Likewise, Mary is introduced as her own character, as part of Billy's continued search for his lost family, and is likewise empowered to help rescue a captured Billy and Freddy from evil. And she too got her own series.

Nope. Freddy's beef with Captain Nazi took time to unfold. The only thing that Freddy initially did was be Cap's sidekick, until he got his own series. Same thing in PoS...

In the Power of Shazam graphic novel, Mary's place in the story is told from day one, and Billy's quest to find her is one of his main motivations in being Captain Marvel. It takes four issues of set up, searching and story before Billy finds her and she's empowered by Shazam herself, by which point shes' as fleshed out a character as Billy is within the series. Likewise, Freddy is shown from early in the series as a friend of Billy, his crippling by Capt. Nazi happens in issue 6, and his empowerment comes the next issue. Again, time was spent working Freddy into the story, showing us his personality, and making him a character.

Nope. Mary served as a "MacGuffin" for Billy in PoS, whereas in the Golden Age, he didn't even know he had a twin sister. As for Freddy, I distinctly remember him and Billy getting over fights, with Billy acting territorial over his sister, while Freddy pretty much ran off and became "emo". Doesn't sound too different from your criticism of how Billy has been acting of late...

The the Shazam: Monster Society/Billy Batson and the Magic of Shazam series, Billy's search for Mary is also a big deal, she's as big a part of the story as Billy, is part of the reason why he retains his powers, and when Freddy is introduced, he's given an actual character arc where he even spends a brief time as Black Adam Jr.

Better comic than PoS, and by a better writer (love his "Bone" series), so I will give you this one.

In Curse of Shazam . . . Mary and Freddy are just part of Billy's foster family, along with 3 other kids. Of the five foster siblings, Freddy gets the most screen time because he was re-designed as a grifter/con-man, Mary's personality shines once or twice, Darla makes Billy feel bad, and Pedro and Eugene . . . exist. They were shoved into the story in the quickest, easiest and laziest way possible, they served their role, and they were done. When Batman: The Brave and the Bold does a better job of handling Mary's introduction than a mult-issue comic, something has gone wrong.

I like the the depiction of the Marvel Family in BtB&tB; not too crazy about how he was depicted either in YOUNG JUSTICE or JUSTICE LEAGUE ACTION. However, I'm just not saying that CoS is worse for going a different route. Just different. But, to each his or her own.

Again, I understand. You want diversity in comics, you liked aspects of Curse of Shazam, and you want someone to come in and rescue these rough character sketches from the cutting room floor, to try and maybe breath some life into them, develop them into fully fleshed out characters. Try and make something of them, see if any potential can be wrung out of them, make of them what their creator could not.

SNIP!

The most I'd do is make the new additions to the Marvel Family that share the same ethnicity have a similar name or look. Like, make the Mexican girl be called Pedra, have the Japanese boy be named Eiji, and have the African boy or girl be called something like Darya or Darrius. Little nods to the Cursed Kids, but also clear that these kids are not just "Billy's Conveniently Thrown Together Foster Family", they're kids who had their own lives in other parts of the world, of different cultures and are their own characters.

So again, I completely get that you want these kids to be made into something of value for the sake of diversity. I'd rather make actually interesting characters and have the diversity just be a nice benefit.

So...you just changed the genders. Okay, but your character treatment is no different from what Geoff Johns wanted to do. Again, characters can be "advanced" to become fully developed, I, IMO, don't see the need to get rid of Pedro, Darla or Eugene other than the fact that you want to do so specifically because of Johns, who created the kids. Seems a bit short-sighted and needlessly personal.

Then don't include it in a post where your whole point for saving these kids is in the name of diversity, or to imply that there's something wrong being "left with" the classic Marvel Family. You know, the guys that have endured for 75 years against all odds. Though the irony is using "whitebread" to describe Cap, Mary and Jr, when the meaning of the term is "bland" and "generic", which I think sums up the Cursed Kids nicely.

I brought it up in the context of the comic books, which is why I wondered why you threw in "race" into this discussion. At least you acknowledge the term as a counter-argument when describing Darla, Pedro and Eugene, which is perfectly legitimate...

Which I acknowledge that me pointing out was just me being a jerk. Sorry.

We can all be jerks about our passion. The difference is that, in this case, I'm RIGHT. ;-) LOL. Kidding, of course. Anyway, I will await your response, as always. Love reading your treatment of a Marvel Family "revamp", even though we all know that best treatment is Jeff Parker and Doc Shaner (CONVERGENCE: SHAZAM!). Those guys rock...

[Dominick1216]

So, are Superman and Captain Marvel/Shazam loyal allies/friends or are they adversaries/rivals that have to work with each other when they have to? I've recently read Superman/Shazam: First Thunder and what I got from the end is that Clark becomes this mentor-type/father figure to Billy. But what does it comes down to, allies or rivals?

[Assam]

So, are Superman and Captain Marvel/Shazam loyal allies/friends or are they adversaries/rivals that have to work with each other when they have to? I've recently read Superman/Shazam: First Thunder and what I got from the end is that Clark becomes this mentor-type/father figure to Billy. But what does it comes down to, allies or rivals?

In the main DCU, and not Elseworld's stories where they're forced to fight for increasingly stupid reasons, when Supes and Captain Marvel are allowed to interact, they're generally pretty good buds, with Cap almost acting like a little brother to Clark.

[Phoenixx9]

On overall strength and power level, I always figured Superman was equal to Captain Marvel/Shazam.

Wonder Woman a notch beneath them.

Jr Marvel and Mary a notch below WW.

Is this accurate?

[The Darknight Detective]

On overall strength and power level, I always figured Superman was equal to Captain Marvel/Shazam.

On separate Earths, yes. On the same Earth, then Supes is the more powerful.

[PyroTwilight]

I figure Captain Marvel and Superman are equal (as long as power sharing isn't happening as then it's split in CM's case) with Wonder Woman being just barely under in strength to either.

And the others like Freddie and Mary being about as strong as Supergirl, maybe a bit weaker when they're all channeling power at the same time (same for CM).

[dswynne]

I figure Captain Marvel and Superman are equal (as long as power sharing isn't happening as then it's split in CM's case) with Wonder Woman being just barely under in strength to either.

And the others like Freddie and Mary being about as strong as Supergirl, maybe a bit weaker when they're all channeling power at the same time (same for CM).

The caveat for WW is that since WW possessed the strength of Demeter (an Earth goddess) and CM possessed the strength of Hercules (a demi-god), WW is stronger than CM...though this may have changed since WW is now the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta.

[Phoenixx9]

Well, way back, they used to state that WW was stronger than Hercules, whereas CM has the strength of Hercules. But I never saw WW beat CM or be considered by DC as his power equal.

[PyroTwilight]

The caveat for WW is that since WW possessed the strength of Demeter (an Earth goddess) and CM possessed the strength of Hercules (a demi-god), WW is stronger than CM...though this may have changed since WW is now the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta.

Eh. It's not like it's a real one to one ratio. I mean Wonderwoman HAS fought and beat up Hercules in her own comic after all. And while I know folks love to debate how literal the stength of Hercules and so forth are they're ultimately just terms to give you an idea of CM's power.

[dswynne]

Naw, I want JOHN CENA!!! (Cue John Cena intro music) Duh, duh, duh, duuuuuhhh!

[dswynne]

My ultimate Captain Marvel continuity would be to combine the Marvel, DC and Fawcett timelines, where Billy Batson, formerly the GA Captain Marvel, is the Wizard (and present Guardian of the RoE), while Carol Danvers is modern Captain Marvel (as Billy's Champion). More to come later...