Captain Marvel / Shazam Appreciaton

[Ares]

I would prefer him being called "Captain Thunder" over Shazam.

Agreed. If they HAVE to change his name, if Captain Marvel is just not an option anymore, then Captain Thunder is at least a nice compromise, you can have the Thunder Family, you don't need to jump through so many hoops to make them work, nothing about his magic word being his name, etc. You lose a little alteration with "Mary Thunder", but that's a relatively small thing.

Also, I think it's time to bring back the "split" between Billy and Cap. For the last three decades, Cap has been Billy in an adult body, but long-time fans of the Marvels know that this was not always the case. The reason I think this is important is that recent incarnations of Captain Marvel have depicted him as an idiot. Should he have a sense of childish whimsy? Yes. Should he be a fool? No.

I agree that Cap should not be portrayed as a fool, but I disagree about making him and Billy separate entities again. The Pre-DC stuff was always coy about whether Billy and Cap were the same person or separate people, because examining that kind of thing wasn't really part of the storytelling of the time. Sometimes they leaned towards "same person", sometimes they leaned towards "separate beings".

I do agree that some sources have presented Cap as being an idiot, but I have my doubts that they would have portrayed him better if Billy and Cap were separate people. The biggest sources of such have been things like Justice League International, where Keith Giffen and JMS Dematties wrote Cap as simpleminded comic relief, and was really the source of a lot of Cap's portrayal as being a whitebread doormat. Curse of Shazam and the overall Nu-52 have portrayed Billy as not particularly bright, somewhat boorish and arrogant.

On the flip side, Billy's animated appearances have generally portrayed him pretty well (outside of the Justice League:War/Atlantis films), and in a fair bit of his books he was portrayed as a pretty solid hero.

The problem with bad presentations of Cap isn't that Billy Batson was in control of the body, the problem is that writers wrote Billy Batson as an immature idiot instead of as the hero. One thing the Pre-DC Fawcett books did was constantly show that Billy was brave, resourceful, clever, determined, incorruptible and mature for his age. He was sometimes impulsive, he could be fooled by a sufficiently clever scheme, and his inquisitive nature sometimes got him into trouble, but it was clear that Billy was a hero.

And that's the thing for me: Billy was the one picked by Shazam to be his champion, so Billy should be in control of the Captain Marvel body. Otherwise, Captain Marvel is basically a genie Billy summons to solve all of his problems, which defeats the purpose of picking Billy in the first place. Captain Marvel is much better as just a form Billy assumes that gives him the power to take matters into his own hands.

Instead of making Cap a separate person, there just needs to be some kind of mandate/reminder for anyone that wants to use Billy that he should be written more like a kind of hybrid of Dick Grayson and Tim Drake. If you make Billy a capable but relatable hero, and Captain Marvel more like magical power armor he puts on, then Cap would never be written like a moron because the core of who he is would be genuinely heroic and clever. It boggles my mind that people would write Cap as a buffoon when his origin is all about picking the best person for the job.

[Ares]

One more thing...

Does anybody else remember the Rock of Finality from Geoff John's final JSA arc? Has Johns ever spoken about what his plans were for the RoF, or the dark being who dwells there?

From what I remember, that whole arc was written by Jerry Ordway, not Geoff Johns. From what I can recall, Ordway said that he was going to have an arc where they kind of sorted out the Trials of Shazam stuff, with Billy, Mary and Freddy eventually getting their original powers back. But then Flashpoint happened and it got blown all to Hell.

[Thor2014]

I think that Johns evolved BA from just a villain. He was an anti-hero at most, Johns portrayed him as Namor-esque. Namor can be a jerk opponent and a pompous leader but he usually is lumped in the hero category. His motives were shown to be noble in wanting to free and lead his people. That's why he reunited Infinity Inc to hand out justice his way. That arc was well-executed and was the peak of Geoff's run.

[Marvelman]

Agreed. If they HAVE to change his name, if Captain Marvel is just not an option anymore, then Captain Thunder is at least a nice compromise, you can have the Thunder Family, you don't need to jump through so many hoops to make them work, nothing about his magic word being his name, etc. You lose a little alteration with "Mary Thunder", but that's a relatively small thing.



I agree that Cap should not be portrayed as a fool, but I disagree about making him and Billy separate entities again. The Pre-DC stuff was always coy about whether Billy and Cap were the same person or separate people, because examining that kind of thing wasn't really part of the storytelling of the time. Sometimes they leaned towards "same person", sometimes they leaned towards "separate beings".

I do agree that some sources have presented Cap as being an idiot, but I have my doubts that they would have portrayed him better if Billy and Cap were separate people. The biggest sources of such have been things like Justice League International, where Keith Giffen and JMS Dematties wrote Cap as simpleminded comic relief, and was really the source of a lot of Cap's portrayal as being a whitebread doormat. Curse of Shazam and the overall Nu-52 have portrayed Billy as not particularly bright, somewhat boorish and arrogant.

On the flip side, Billy's animated appearances have generally portrayed him pretty well (outside of the Justice League:War/Atlantis films), and in a fair bit of his books he was portrayed as a pretty solid hero.

The problem with bad presentations of Cap isn't that Billy Batson was in control of the body, the problem is that writers wrote Billy Batson as an immature idiot instead of as the hero. One thing the Pre-DC Fawcett books did was constantly show that Billy was brave, resourceful, clever, determined, incorruptible and mature for his age. He was sometimes impulsive, he could be fooled by a sufficiently clever scheme, and his inquisitive nature sometimes got him into trouble, but it was clear that Billy was a hero.

And that's the thing for me: Billy was the one picked by Shazam to be his champion, so Billy should be in control of the Captain Marvel body. Otherwise, Captain Marvel is basically a genie Billy summons to solve all of his problems, which defeats the purpose of picking Billy in the first place. Captain Marvel is much better as just a form Billy assumes that gives him the power to take matters into his own hands.

Instead of making Cap a separate person, there just needs to be some kind of mandate/reminder for anyone that wants to use Billy that he should be written more like a kind of hybrid of Dick Grayson and Tim Drake. If you make Billy a capable but relatable hero, and Captain Marvel more like magical power armor he puts on, then Cap would never be written like a moron because the core of who he is would be genuinely heroic and clever. It boggles my mind that people would write Cap as a buffoon when his origin is all about picking the best person for the job.

Another way of looking at it is that with the wisdom of Solomon and the courage of Achilles Cap's personality is an enhanced version of Billy's.

[Marvelman]

From what I remember, that whole arc was written by Jerry Ordway, not Geoff Johns. From what I can recall, Ordway said that he was going to have an arc where they kind of sorted out the Trials of Shazam stuff, with Billy, Mary and Freddy eventually getting their original powers back. But then Flashpoint happened and it got blown all to Hell.

I'm looking at Justice Society of America #25 right now. The story is attributed to both Johns and Ordway, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Rock of Finality was Jerry's idea.

[liwanag]

what's the history with the captain thunder name?

[Robotman]

what's the history with the captain thunder name?

Before DC had the rights to Captain Marvel there was a Superman story where he met a hero from another earth named Captain Thunder. He looked just like CM but his chest emblem was different.



I think Geoff Johns was testing the water in Flashpoint by having the Shazam kids turn into Captain Thunder. But I've heard a rumor that DC doesn't even own the rights to the Captain Thunder name.

[Mutant God]

If they can't use Captain Marvel/Thunder maybe they can use the name White Thunder and he can team with Black Lightning, lol, where The Wizard tutors Billy in magic/fantasy and Pierce can tutor Billy in the real world and the Batson siblings can be friends with Pierce's daughters.

[liwanag]

Before DC had the rights to Captain Marvel there was a Superman story where he met a hero from another earth named Captain Thunder. He looked just like CM but his chest emblem was different.



I think Geoff Johns was testing the water in Flashpoint by having the Shazam kids turn into Captain Thunder. But I've heard a rumor that DC doesn't even own the rights to the Captain Thunder name.

hmm... the chest emblem reminds me of captain comet.

[liwanag]

[maxmcco]

Before DC had the rights to Captain Marvel there was a Superman story where he met a hero from another earth named Captain Thunder. He looked just like CM but his chest emblem was different.

Actually, DC already had the rights to Captain Marvel, but he was in his own universe and DC wasn't ready to have him meet Superman yet. This was done as a trial run. Captain Marvel and most of the Fawcett heroes finally met the heroes of Earths One and Two a few years later in the annual JLA/JSA crisis crossover event.

justice-league-justice-league-america-no-137-color_a-G-13188820-4985786.jpg

[justinslot]

I have an Internet crank idea that WB moved up the Shazam movie production so we'd have two Captain Marvel movies shooting at the same time and a lot of "In a battle of Captain Marvels, who will triumph?" style hype as a result.

[maxmcco]

I have an Internet crank idea that WB moved up the Shazam movie production so we'd have two Captain Marvel movies shooting at the same time and a lot of "In a battle of Captain Marvels, who will triumph?" style hype as a result.

It's funny how so many sites report that the Shazam movie was 'moved up." The Shazam release date (April 5, 2019) was set set all the way back when Warner Bros. first announced their DCEU slate back in 2014. https://www.newsarama.com/22447-warn...borg-more.html

[justinslot]

It's funny how so many sites report that the Shazam movie was 'moved up." The Shazam release date (April 5, 2019) was set set all the way back when Warner Bros. first announced their DCEU slate back in 2014. https://www.newsarama.com/22447-warn...borg-more.html

"Moved up" was just my impression...I think it's news that they're definitely doing it next.

[dswynne]

Which is something I'd support, to an extent, at least in the case of PoS: Dead Earth or PoS: 1M. To me, Billy becoming the Wizard should be akin to Thor becoming the new ruler of Asgard, taking on Odin's position, power and authority: it's a natural progression for the character that shouldn't happen for another 100+ years or so. Because we want to see stories about Thor and Cap as they are, not with them as figures on thrones outside of What Ifs and Elseworlds. That showed a fundamental misunderstanding during Trials, the idea that we'd want to see Billy just sitting in the Rock not doing anything. Shazam had hundreds of years as the Champion and thousands as the Wizard before he became stuck in the Rock. Billy should be an active hero for a long time, and even as Wizard he's unlikely to really "retire". I mean, by all rights Billy should still be an active hero well after the Legion of Superheroes have come and gone.

To a certain extent, I agree. Certainly, if Superman can still be active, as seen in BATMAN BEYOND, certainly the Marvel Family can. I did like how they were interpreted in the comic JUSTICE LEAGUE BEYOND. Personally, I thought that Captain Marvel was still Billy Batson, but a lot more seasoned, and that he still had a "kid" form, which I interpreted as being just as much as a "magical construct" as is Billy's hero form. And I liked how Billy had a good relationship with both Superman and his girlfriend, who happened to be that era's version of the Flash. It was funny how some readers initially thought that Mary could assume the mantle of a male Captain Marvel, before it was revealed that no more than one member of the Marvel Family could appear on Earth at the same time (I forgot the reason).

Still, the Age of Heroes have to end, so that future heroes, particularly the Legion of Superheroes, have to take the place of their predecessors (which is why I liked Thunder, from DEAD EARTH: SHAZAM!, was a member of the Legion).