Captain Marvel / Shazam Appreciaton

[Güicho]

Maybe if they had shown him be nice, then try to cover it over by pretending to be a brat to make it clear it was a mask, it would have gone over better.

"Maybe if..."?
Yeah they did show that, you either completley missed it, which is hard to imagine anyone could unless they read it with their eyes/mind completley closed, or just permanently shut it and judged the whole thing from just the first few pages. Which some reviewers apparently did, then made it their mission to tell everyone to stay away. LOL!

Yes he's surprisingly hard to like at first, yet it quickly becomes clear why it's a farce, why he's outwardly putting that out there , one of the first things they show is Billy sticking up for and defending this new family, that he's outwardly suposedly rejecting, and doesn't seem to want to connect with.
Did you at least read that part?
When bullies pick on them, he can't help but defend them. Immediately shows you his true nature and instinct is defending the small/awkward/downtrodden, ...his new family.
He then uses himself as the decoy, so Freddy can get away.
Revealing who he is.
We learn he still has hope in finding his real parents, his real family. He's not going to accept anyone to replace them. He says even if they were "Superman and Wonder Woman".
We get a kid in conflict about what he wants, what his "family" is becomes the theme.

Yet when it comes to it, if you actually read it, he recognizes these people can be his family too.

"Family is what it can be, ....not what it should be"

...!

.

Almost from the go it's clear what he's doing, yes he's a tiny bit more complex, so as the story builds they are showing you two very human sides to the character.
It's not just about some kid getting power because they are "born perfect", but about the choices they make once given power.
Further this is all paralleled wonderfully against Teth Adam's origin which parallels Billy's to an extreme, who also is chosen to get the same power, but makes a different choice. Also about "family".
It's all there.
When the Wizard explores his mind, you see exactly that: Two sides, one lashing out, rejecting, showing what he could be. The other reaching out to people (and animals) in need, helping them.
In it's simplest most whimsical form, any kid could grasp it.
Because of that, the big revel at the end, means all the more, it carries weight; why he was chosen, what he can do, what he chooses to do with the power is wonderful, it means something!

Read it!

As far as the Darla hate? Yeah not sure where you are picking that up? Sounds awful.
I don't know, maybe be more selective in your "reviewers", especially if you are going by what they say, rather than reading the book yourself....

I think it was another site, though I can’t remember where. The reviewer found her obnoxious and called her the worst part of the story, and a few people agreed with him.

...sad.

[SilverWarriorWolf]

"Maybe if..."?
Yeah they did show that, you either completley missed it, which is hard to imagine anyone could unless they read it with their eyes/mind completley closed, or just permanently shut it and judged the whole thing from just a few pages. Which some reviewers apparently did, then made it their mission to tell everyone to stay away. LOL!

I mean even before the “what a couple of idiots” line. I know they start showing a better side once he beats up the Bryers, but for some people, it came too late.

Yes he's surprisingly hard to like at first, yet it quickly becomes clear why, one of the first things they show is Billy sticking up for and defending this new family, that he's outwardly suposedly rejecting, and doesn't seem to want to connect with.
Did you at least read that part?
When bullies pick on them, he can't help but defend them. Immediately shows you his true nature and instinct is defending the small/awkward/downtrodden, ...his new family.
He then uses himself as the decoy, so Freddy can get away.
Revealing who he is.
It was pretty clear from the go, he's a tiny bit more complex, so as the story builds to a kid in conflict, they are showing you two sides to the character.
So it's not just about getting power because you are "born perfect", but the choices you make once given power. This is all paralleled wonderfully against Teth Adam's origin which parallels Billy's to an extreme, who also is chosen to get the same power, but makes a different choice.
It's all there.
When the Wizard explores his mind, you see exactly that: Two sides, one lashing out, rejecting, showing what he could be. The other reaching out to people (and animals) in need, helping them.
In it's simplest most whimsical form, any kid could grasp it.
Because of that, the big revel at the end, means all the more, it carries weight; why he was chosen, what he can do, what he chooses to do with the power means something!
Read it!

My point is they should have hinted to that earlier, so there wasn’t two full issues of “Billy’s a brat now, get used to it.”

As far as the Darla hate? Yeah not sure where you are picking that up?
I don't know, maybe be more selective in your "reviewers", especially if you are going by what they say rather than reading the book yourself. ...sad.

Believe it or not, I am reading both positive and negative reviews, and if you had read some of my last comments, I said Billy was my only hurdle to this story. I love everything else. The plot was great, I love the foster siblings and want to see more, I’d like more depth to the Vasquez parents, I enjoyed the reimagining of Dr. Sivana, and the tragic backstory for Black Adam was great! I even like New 52 Freddy more than classic Freddy, as classic Freddy comes off as angry and not much else while New 52s is a lovable rogue.

I don’t even mind flawed Billy. I think the movie’s version looks great! I just think Johns went a little too far with the brat front before letting the mask crack.

[Güicho]

^ That's great, So you finally read it?
Cause you said you hadn't before?
Or you still just going by reviews?

I mean even before the “what a couple of idiots” line. I know they start showing a better side once he beats up the Bryers, but for some people, it came too late.

My point is they should have hinted to that earlier, so there wasn’t two full issues of “Billy’s a brat now, get used to it.”


.

It wasn't even one full issue, these were told in backups, about 11 pages each (the last always a splash).
I don't know your age, but it seems kids get the I want everything satisfied or answered right now or I won't like it or touch it mentality.
The scene you say "should have come earlier" for you, was about 25 pages in, that's barely over one, how freakin impatient are you?


LOL!

[SilverWarriorWolf]

It wasn't even one full issue, these were told in backups, abut 11 pages each.
I don't know your age, but it seems kids get the I want everything satisfied or answered now or I don't like it mentality.
The seen you say cam to late was about 25 pages in, not even one full issue, let alonre two as you claim.
LOL!

It was two issues of Justice League. Two issues people had to pay money for.

I don’t see what age matters. If a twelve year old gives me their reasoning, even if I disagree, I can respect them.
A 30 year old who just says “you’re wrong, so there” does not garner any respect.

As for the everything now, when did I say make him good from the start? I mean, show him feeding a stray cat, or making a slight move to help another kid, like getting something down from a high shelf. Heck, the movie trailer did it by having him act friendly towards Freddy right off. Nothing large, but a reason to get invested in his character.

The scene you say "should have come earlier" for you, was about 25 pages in, that's barely over one, how freakin impatient are you?

I’ve given you my reasoning, and it’s clear you’re not going to respect that I have a different opinion.

You can like New 52 Billy. That doesn’t effect me at all. I’m just not crazy about how he acted in this arc. I don’t even think it’s the worst portrayal of the Shazam franchise (that honor goes to everything from Countdown until Flashpoint), and I am eager to see where Johns is going next. I just didn’t like early Billy and I haven’t seen reasoning to my satisfaction for why I should.

[Güicho]

I mean, show him feeding a stray cat, or making a slight move to help another kid,

They show him feeding a big cat, the tiger, they show him defending and sticking up for a whole bunch of kids, the family.

Did you read it?

I acknowledged and I empathized with you that the kid was hard to like at first.

Since if you actually read what I wrote I'm saying they need to read the whole story to get it.
And emphasized what they are missing.
I was however, also trying to be a bit more empathetic (i guess that's a sin here) to the reviewer, and SilverWarriorWolf who posted the review, in recognizing the Billy as portrayed in the first few issues is hard to like, and I can understand why that turned some off.
However I also clearly pointed out. .... that they hadn't read the whole story and why they should, was my main criticism of the review, as well as to SilverWarriorWolf who has admitted he never actually read beyond the first few issues.
Yet he continues to be one it's harshest critics across these boards.

So don't pretend.
Although you seem to have changed your POV?
I respect you, and especially if you actually read the story.
My criticism has been mostly if you mischaracterize the story.
When you've been saying you haven't read it. and were just going on other peoples reviews.

Have you finally read it now?

[SilverWarriorWolf]

So don't pretend.
Although you seem to have changed your POV?
I respect you, and especially if you actually read the story.
My criticism has been mostly if you mischaracterize the story.
When you've been saying you haven't read it. and were just going on other peoples reviews.

Have you finally read it now?

Correction, reviews (positive and negative, as I did find positive), some online scans, and online summaries.
I want to (I want to know more about Francesca and the Vasquez parents; there’s just nothing online), but have not been in the position to rent a copy. Buying is not a financial option.

I have opinions that I have formed from gleaning a variety of sources. I will not pretend I’ve read it yet; I have not, though I would like to. However, I will not pretend I do not have opinions and I will list the sources that have shaped those opinions.

[WonderScott]

Thanks! yeah although I loved the Shazam back-ups, and somewhat enjoyed the JL reboot, I just could not follow the book into another event. So I dropped it (and the other JLA title at the time), kind of missed Billy actually joining the League.
And was left wondering about (among other things) the girl in the reflection.

Edit: Although I'm remembering, and looking at the wiki now, the event was Trinity War, where a character "Pandora" seems to feature prominently, and Johns apparently seeded into many books building to the event.

That wasn't her was it?

If not, I imagine we might finally get the explanation of who/what she was, and why Mr. Mind was at the Rock of Eternity, and more, in the new ongoing.
Looking forward to it.



Looking at that scene again ^ , there are actually three talking beings highlighted there.
Very Beauty & the Beast(ish):
The mirror, the bell-jar which turns out to contain Mr. Mind, and the third is a talking Knights armor. Which has SHAZAM logo emblazoned on the shoulder, and wrist guard.
Also a lethal looking scar across the chest.
Does this visual reference anything/anyone from one of the past Fawcett stories?




?

Interesting. I obviously need to reread the story again, because I forgot a few of these details - the being in the mirror and spirit trapped within the suit of armor in the Rock of Eternity.

For the mirror, I'm going to start scouring wikias for Shazam villainesses who may make sense as a captured/cursed occupant. Maybe it's a known, popular Shazam foe with a thematic twist? Hmmm...

I wonder if Mr. Mind is a long-lived species that attacked Earth at a previous point in time and was brought to the Rock of Eternity for incarceration? Or if time passes differently/more slowly in the RoE, compared to the outside realms?

I'm guessing the suit of armor belongs to a former, Medieval champion of Shazam that we never heard of before and maybe we'll get a time's past take, similar to Black Adam's origin.

As for the talk of visiting the seven realms (I think that's the total number mentioned) in the new series, I wonder if the realms have any correlation between Mamaragan and the other wizards and sorceresses present in the Circle/Council of Eternity from the Free Comic Day Shazam story from a few years ago? I'd love to learn more about all those characters and they're seven in number.

IMG_0427.jpg

[SilverWarriorWolf]

Interesting. I obviously need to reread the story again, because I forgot a few of these details - the being in the mirror and spirit trapped within the suit of armor in the Rock of Eternity.

For the mirror, I'm going to start scouring wikias for Shazam villainesses who may make sense as a captured/cursed occupant. Maybe it's a known, popular Shazam foe with a thematic twist? Hmmm...

I wonder if Mr. Mind is a long-lived species that attacked Earth at a previous point in time and was brought to the Rock of Eternity for incarceration? Or if time passes differently/more slowly in the RoE, compared to the outside realms?

I'm guessing the suit of armor belongs to a former, Medieval champion of Shazam that we never heard of before and maybe we'll get a time's past take, similar to Black Adam's origin.

As for the talk of visiting the seven realms (I think that's the total number mentioned) in the new series, I wonder if the realms have any correlation between Mamaragan and the other wizards and sorceresses present in the Circle/Council of Eternity from the Free Comic Day Shazam story from a few years ago? I'd love to learn more about all those characters and they're seven in number.

IMG_0427.jpg

There’s so many interesting directions for Johns to go with this new series. Considering he’s cited the Chronicles of Narnia and The Phantom Tollbooth as inspirations, I suppose he’ll be going for a more fantasy centric direction, which I think is a good way to make the series stand on its own.





This scene really gives me Beauty and the Beast vibes. Specifically, the beginning scene with Lumier and Cogsworth talking about Belle.

I’d love to have magical side character show up. Not just villains, but side character and allies too.

[J. D. Guy]

I struggled to understand detractors "wild hatred" of Johns' DCnU Billy Batson when the character was so intriguing and nuanced and belied a hidden depth and goodness that we got savor rising within him, chapter by chapter. His Billy and the rest of the characters' personalities and story beats were the most interesting the Shazam cast (heroes, villains, supporting characters, and <ahem> tigers) has ever been - at once grounded in their mortal foibles and/or zeal and/or POVs and juxtaposed by their joy and/or tyranny in their marvelous forms.

Everyone (Billy, Black Adam, the Wizard, Sivana, Freddie, Mary, etc) was just trying to "figure it out" (i.e. life) and it was so refreshing that no one was perfectly good or perfectly evil.

I liked Captain Marvel before, but I never found him compelling. This brief story changed that. Now, out of all the dualities out there; Clark Kent/Superman, Bruce Wayne/Batman, Diana Prince/Wonder Woman, or Peter Parker/Spider-Man; I find Billy Batson/Shazam the most intriguing. Johns hit all the right notes of a somewhat troubled, somewhat traumatized, but ultimately heroic teen gaining one of myth's great wishes of all time. And I can't wait to see that play out with his character, and his new family, and the new threats and discoveries (e.g. a long lost sis) he'll make.

Maybe it was easier for me because I had no expectations going in and just wanted an interesting read on a character that's been around for a long time. Johns and Frank stayed true to the character and the concept and his mythology with some new twists - and it was fulfilling to me. You really can't ask for more as a longtime comic's reader, at least one who's not stuck in a particular "it must be this way" era for a character. I can't wait to see what Johns and Eaglesham do with the characters and concepts and themes in the new series.

I have to admit, this post is pretty much me in a nutshell, regarding this character and regarding other comics characters in general, both new and "worn".

[J. D. Guy]

One question I have is why do so many people hate Darla? She pretty much is a peppier classic Billy as a girl.

People hate Darla? Outside those who dismiss the whole Shazamily -- not named Mary and Freddy, I've never known that to be the case, where they specifically showed a hatred towards Darla, of all characters.

I can’t speak for others, but personally, I have a hard time caring about someone when the first impressions we get of someone are that they’re being nasty. Maybe if they had shown him be nice, then try to cover it over by pretending to be a brat to make it clear it was a mask, it would have gone over better.

That said, I am willing to give the upcoming series a chance. I don’t really believe in wildly hating something in a comic book.

They could have did it that way, but it wouldn't have had the same impact and conveyance of the themes they were conveying if they did it like that. It would have felt more like "cheating" to do it that way.

My point is they should have hinted to that earlier, so there wasn’t two full issues of “Billy’s a brat now, get used to it.”

Like I said, they could have (I wouldn't argue 'should'. in this case), but they didn't because showing the brat-facade then showing the facades' cracks carried the impact and conveyed the themes of the story better. In a way, it acts like a secret test of character for the persons reading the story that is juxtaposed alongside the one we see Billy struggle and go through in the book.

[J. D. Guy]

I'm curious what they'll do with Mr. Mind, based on his portrayal in the last chapter.

Sivana seems vastly improved to me, with new motivations and at least one ability to view magic. I hope we get to see his wife and kids though, as another take on the family theme in the title.

The same goes for Black Adam and Rebirth Isis and Osiris. I'd also be curious to have the the Wizard and Lord Satanus and Lady Blaze's story told. As far as I know, the identity of their mother with the Wizard has never been revealed.

Between Mrs. Batson, Mrs. Sivana, and the mother of Satanus and Blaze, that's a lot of missing maternal figures in the Shazam mythology that I'd like to see get explored alongside the paternal figures.

A genuinely done revitalization of Isis and Osiris would be wonderful. I especially want a Rebirth Osiris/Amon. That kid really got the short end of the stick in every which way pre-Flashpoint. Even his New 52 version existed in a single "Villain's Issue" only to be "roped" into an extremist mentality, attempt to revive Black Adam, and die in his sister's arms so she can "take up the cause". Being Amon Tomas/Osiris really has been suffering.

He's such a cool character and concept and parallel and foil. But I've read in the 52 Trade that even some of the writers back then arbitrarily had it out for him.

[J. D. Guy]

Also, for reference, the lady trapped in the mirror is named Francesca, for anyone who did not know her name. If I recall, she name-drops something that gives me "Through the Looking Glass" vibes, but presumably we'll know more in time. I don't think she's going anywhere.

[SiegePerilous02]

Also, for reference, the lady tapped in the mirror is named Francesca, for anyone who did not know her name. If I recall, she name-drops something that gives me "Through the Looking Glass" vibes, but presumably we'll know more in time. I don't think she's going anywhere.

She mentioned something called the Wonderlands. A lot of the old Mary Marvel covers came to my mind when she mentioned it.

[SilverWarriorWolf]

People hate Darla? Outside those who dismiss the whole Shazamily -- not named Mary and Freddy, I've never known that to be the case, where they specifically showed a hatred towards Darla, of all characters.

That shocked me, too. I like all three of the new kids as they make a great team, but it really suprised me that she was hated. I guess there are people who just hate everyone under 15 in shows.

They could have did it that way, but it wouldn't have had the same impact and conveyance of the themes they were conveying if they did it like that. It would have felt more like "cheating" to do it that way.



Like I said, they could have (I wouldn't argue 'should'. in this case), but they didn't because showing the brat-facade then showing the facades' cracks carried the impact and conveyed the themes of the story better. In a way, it acts like a secret test of character for the persons reading the story that is juxtaposed alongside the one we see Billy struggle and go through in the book.

Personally, I disagree, but that’s a matter of how much brattishness you can tolerate.

A genuinely done revitalization of Isis and Osiris would be wonderful. I especially want a Rebirth Osiris/Amon. That kid really got the short end of the stick in every which way pre-Flashpoint. Even his New 52 version existed in a single "Villain's Issue" only to be "roped" into an extremist mentality, attempt to revive Black Adam, and die in his sister's arms so she can "take up the cause". Being Amon Tomas/Osiris really has been suffering.

He's such a cool character and concept and parallel and foil. But I've read in the 52 Trade that even some of the writers back then arbitrarily had it out for him.

I’d love to introduce them as normal, and then build (through character development) to the point where Adam can share his powers with them the way Billy does with the Shazamily, so the mirror could be complete.

[SilverWarriorWolf]

One adendum to something I wrote earlier.

The worst thing to ever happen to the Captain Marvel character was Distant Fires. I don’t think there’s any lower to go.