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  1. #136
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    They've tried various times since the early 70's, they just haven't been as successful at it. And there will be these gaps where it looks like they make really half hearted attempts.
    I think this ties into this:

    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Marvel has always been more blatantly commercial than DC in their approach, and they always get too jittery when their attempts to push female and minority characters don't sell well out of the gate and pull the rug out from under them. Also, most of their writers are just really bad at writing women and they often come off as bitchy and unlikable whether that was the intent or not. The company especially seems to like creating these spunky teenagers that get pushed hard, then when they wear out their welcome are aged up into immature and irritating adults, leaving all the fans disappointed about wasted potential and what not.
    For years, If a book isn't an instant success on the direct market Marvel usually pulls the plug and barely looks at the character for years. However, Marvel has gotten much better recently with books like Moon Girl and Unstoppable Wasp.
    Last edited by Crimz; 01-22-2019 at 08:03 PM.
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  2. #137
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Begs the question, which of Marvel's fab females have had the longest uninterrupted solo series run?
    Hard to say, especially in this day and age where Marvel thinks nothing of ending a series after a year or two and then almost immediately relaunching it with a shiny new "1st Fabulous Issue!" plastered on the cover.

    What we can do is see how books with female leads / co-leads in the title have done recently.

    Here's information based on Diamond's Top 500 Comics list for November 2018 using both Marvel and DC's ladies:
    * 25th - CATWOMAN #5 (DC) - 50,131 copies
    * 33rd - WONDER WOMAN #58 (DC) - 44,467 copies
    * 45th - IRONHEART #1 (MARVEL) - 40,739 copies
    * 49th - WONDER WOMAN #59 (DC) - 37,418 copies
    * 53rd - BATGIRL #29 (DC) - 35,356 copies
    * 56th - SPIDER-GWEN GHOST SPIDER #2 (MARVEL) - 32,715 copies
    * 62nd - X-23 #6 (MARVEL) - 29,682 copies
    * 66th - HARLEY QUINN #54 (DC) - 28,028 copies
    * 68th - HARLEY QUINN #53 (DC) - 27,903 copies
    * 80th - MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE #12 (with Invisible Woman - MARVEL) - 24,958 copies
    * 89th - SPIDER-GIRLS #2 (MARVEL) - 23,189 copies
    * 96th - SHURI #2 (MARVEL) - 21,881 copies
    * 100th - SUPERGIRL #24 (DC) - 21,295 copies
    * 102nd - DOMINO #8 (MARVEL) - 21,050 copies
    * 105th - OLD LADY HARLEY #2 (DC) - 20,427 copies
    * 107th - MR AND MRS X #5 (MARVEL) - 19,611 copies
    * 123rd - SUICIDE SQUAD BLACK FILES #1 (Katana - DC) - 16,953 copies
    * 138th - MARVELS CAPTAIN MARVEL PRELUDE #1 (MARVEL) - 13,316 copies
    * 142nd - MS MARVEL #36 (MARVEL) - 12,827 copies
    * 147th - PEARL #4 (DC) - 11,693 copies
    * 155th - RAVEN DAUGHTER OF DARKNESS #10 (DC) - 11,070 copies
    * 165th - SCARLET #4 (DC) - 10,405 copies
    * 168th - SILENCER #11 (DC) - 10,018 copies
    * 169th - HEX WIVES #2 (DC) - 9,869 copies
    * 177th - UNSTOPPABLE WASP #2 (MARVEL) - 9,475 copies
    * 189th - UNBEATABLE SQUIRREL GIRL #38 (MARVEL) - 8,298 copies
    * 201st - MARVEL SUPER HERO ADVENTURES CAPTAIN MARVEL #1 (MARVEL) - 7,320 copies
    * 213th - MOON GIRL & DEVIL DINOSAUR #37 (MARVEL) - 6,533 copies
    Hopefully I didn't miss anybody. And remember, these numbers are based on what comic book shops ordered from Diamond, not necessarily how many copies individual readers bought.

    NOTE: December 2018's numbers are also available, but several of DC's title featuring female leads didn't ship during the week of December 26th but were instead moved to the week of January 2nd.
    Last edited by MajorHoy; 01-23-2019 at 01:53 PM.

  3. #138
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    Miss America (madelyne joyce) ran for over 100 issues

    Mayday parker, spider-girl about a 100
    https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Spider-Girl_Vol_1

    Byrne's sensational she-hulk about 60 issues (and reading this was a joy)

    Brian Reed's Ms. marvel for about 50 (one of my faves)

    Spider-woman for about 50 as well

    However, in more current times (post 2010), she hulk's soule run struggled to stay afloat and got cancelled (and it was good too), mariko tamaki's run had also struggled (I didn't like this one personally), Carol's captain marvel books struggle (and I've liked a couple of them), Spider-woman's Hopeless books (I rly enjoyed the second book), also struggled.


    Ms. Marvel (Kamala Khan) (very good books) and Moongirl are kept alive I think with trade sales to scholastic fairs and whatever online sales they can get, even though their direct to LCS sales are very low (below 20,000).

    Charas like Laura Kinney and Jane foster thor sold well I think and had decent runs, but the latter is out.

    Popular X-women like Rogue and storm struggle with diamond sales as well

    Basically, in the current times the female led books have to rely on online sales and trades, and if they appeal to a younger demographic, then scholastic fairs to stay afloat.

  4. #139
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    Miss America (madelyne joyce) ran for over 100 issues
    Did she?

    She was introduced in Marvel Mystery Comics #49 (November 1943) and had a feature in that comic book until #85 (February 1948).

    There was a Miss America Comics that was published in 1944 and featured the Madeline Joyce superhero character, then later that year it became Miss America Magazine. Madeline Joyce did appear in stories for the first few issues of that, but it looks like Patsy Walker then took over as the lead feature.
    (The naming of it as "Miss America" seemed to be tied more to the idea that it was for teen-age girls.)


  5. #140
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Begs the question, which of Marvel's fab females have had the longest uninterrupted solo series run?
    She-Hulk has the most solo issues out of any other mainstream female hero at Marvel. But we all know what they're doing to her now. There's no way she could support a solo series in her current incarnation.

    Taking a gander at the Marvel Database, the female solo count (ignoring team-ups) as of now is:

    1. She-Hulk - 174 issues
    2. Spider-Girl - 146 issues
    3. Captain Marvel - 138 issues
    4. Elektra - 101 issues
    5. Spider-Woman - 96 issues
    6. Ms. Marvel - 57 issues
    7. Black Widow - 55 issues
    8. Squirrel Girl - 51 issues
    9. Spider-Gwen - 46 issues
    10. Dazzler - 45 issues
    11. Mary Jane - 31 issues
    12. Jean Grey - 27 issues
    13. Gwenpool - 26 issues
    14. Hellcat - 25 issues (plus 243 issues of Patsy Walker)
    15. Storm - 25 issues
    16. Rogue - 20 issues
    17. Scarlet Witch - 20 issues
    18. Domino - 18 issues
    19. Black Cat - 14 issues
    20. Gamora - 5 issues

  6. #141
    I am BLACK GUY dreyga2000's Avatar
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    Well, hmmm makes sense that they went with a Captain Marvel movie... I’m surprised Electra has that many issues. Then again she does have a movie. Hopefully we get a Spider-Woman movie.

  7. #142
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    . . . Taking a gander at the Marvel Database, the female solo count (ignoring team-ups) as of now is:

    1. She-Hulk - 163 issues
    2. Spider-Girl - 146 issues
    3. Captain Marvel - 138 issues
    Any idea of how many of those "Captain Marvel" issues were of Carol as "Ms. Marvel"?



    (And does this only take into account self-titled series, or does it include runs in other books where the character's name wasn't the title of the book, but she was the solo feature for one issue or several issues?)

    Also curious: no entries for Shanna the She-Devil?


    The Cat / Tigra?

  8. #143
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Any idea of how many of those "Captain Marvel" issues were of Carol as "Ms. Marvel"?

    (And does this only take into account self-titled series, or does it include runs in other books where the character's name wasn't the title of the book, but she was the solo feature for one issue or several issues?)
    77 issues of Carol's series are "Ms. Marvel."

    I've only included characters with names at least somewhere in the title. I couldn't think of all of them hence why no Shanna (16 issues btw) and Tigra (8 issues)!

    Also, after recounting She-Hulk, she has 174 total; forgot to add her one-shots and specials, as well as the "She-Hulks" mini-series.

  9. #144
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Thanks to both of you for culling the data. Awesome work.
    “True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice.”
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  10. #145
    Astonishing Member OBrianTallent's Avatar
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    I do give Marvel credit for some of their attempts (in her 174 issues She-Hulk has had what like 6 different runs? Spider-Woman 3 or 4 and Carol has had 7...all those are just off the top of my head so it could be more or less.) However when it comes to their male counterparts, how many times has Thor or Iron Man or Daredevil been rebooted? Sometimes it seems like every other year. Like I said, I do give Marvel credit but it's only a C+ at best. While many site the new number 1 as the best way to attract new readers, Marvel's quick draw to cancel a book also gives fans the thought of why bother as it will only be canceled in a year at best. I remember a time when series were given a new creative team before canceling it outright. Now back issues are a nightmare and even trades are difficult to figure out when you have four different series all with the same title for the same character...which number one goes with which number 2 or 6 or 11 and which trade follows the other.
    As far as flagship female character, it's obvious they are moving Carol Danvers/Capt Marvel into that position, which I have no problem with. I would however like to see them push some of their older female characters as well as the new ones (while I dont follow them, I love the fact characters like Ms. Marvel, Wasp and Spider-Gwen are on the stands) but I would also like to see Marvel push Spider-Woman, Daughters of the Dragon, Photon, Tigra, Hellcat, Valkyrie, Dazzler, Storm and a whole host of others be given opportunities that resemble their male counterparts.

  11. #146
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Any idea of how many of those "Captain Marvel" issues were of Carol as "Ms. Marvel"?

    (And does this only take into account self-titled series, or does it include runs in other books where the character's name wasn't the title of the book, but she was the solo feature for one issue or several issues?)
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    77 issues of Carol's series are "Ms. Marvel."
    According to the legacy number chart, it's 73.
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  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    According to the legacy number chart, it's 73.
    i think he included the annuals, specials, and giant sized ones.

  13. #148
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    I think it's time for Spectrum to have a series. She had one-shots and limited releases iirc, but nothing substantial outside of a group book. Hate to see her become the next Invisible Woman in that respect.
    “True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice.”
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  14. #149
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    I think it's time for Spectrum to have a series. She had one-shots and limited releases iirc, but nothing substantial outside of a group book. Hate to see her become the next Invisible Woman in that respect.


    I don’t know why they don’t even try to give Sue the opportunity to have more of a presence. Marvel doesn’t even have her show up outside of a Fantastic Four book like the male members of her team and I don’t understand why.
    Last edited by Crimz; 01-24-2019 at 01:33 PM.
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  15. #150
    trente-et-un/treize responsarbre's Avatar
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    The problem here, which Nyssane is rightfully trying to address by going back and examining issue count, is that it’s really hard to *make* something iconic, especially in comics where everything has the weight of history on it. Even things that do become successful out of the blue tend to have some kind of history backing them up (e.g. Spider-Gwen). But Marvel’s own history poses a problem here; they don’t have an iconic character like Wonder Woman that had a sustained popularity in the Golden Age and a Silver Age revival.

    I think this question is always kind of weird, though, because it’s not something you can just decide. It happens naturally as a result of popularity. And that criticism cuts both ways, towards fans and towards the publisher. Marvel has definitely put effort in making Carol the “flagship female”, but in a very specific way by changing her role and prominence in-universe. That doesn’t really make sense. Spider-Man is the flagship character of Marvel at large, and he got popular without ever becoming THE hero that was the person of choice for all sorts of threats; he just dealt with his own stuff. I think someone else on here said in a thread recently that Marvel dropped the ball on story opportunities because they didn’t examine how Carol really got to where she is and how she feels about it after years of feeling self-conscious about her status. Not only did they ignore good potential stories, but they kind of make Carol’s current status feel a little unearned, which is not a great place to be if you’re supposed to be their primary lady character.

    And then the other problem is that the characters that did achieve iconic status in the past have trouble holding on to it without good and consistent stories to follow it up. Elektra easily has the most acclaimed stories of any female character at Marvel under her belt, but a decade of lackluster stories that followed her resurrection hurt her, and her most recent mini was a weird direction. The X-Women as a collective have an amazing saga of stories in their past, but I think they also uniquely suffer from the lack of Claremont more than any other part of the franchise. (Note the de-emphasis on the female characters that went hand in hand with the Wolverine vs Cyclops saga that was happening for a while.) And now, She-Hulk is allowed to just be turned into whatever Jason Aaron needs her to be, like all the other characters in his Avengers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    She-Hulk has the most solo issues out of any other mainstream female hero at Marvel. But we all know what they're doing to her now. There's no way she could support a solo series in her current incarnation.

    Taking a gander at the Marvel Database, the female solo count (ignoring team-ups) as of now is:

    1. She-Hulk - 174 issues
    2. Spider-Girl - 146 issues
    3. Captain Marvel - 138 issues
    4. Elektra - 101 issues
    5. Spider-Woman - 96 issues
    6. Ms. Marvel - 57 issues
    7. Black Widow - 55 issues
    8. Squirrel Girl - 51 issues
    9. Spider-Gwen - 46 issues
    10. Dazzler - 45 issues
    11. Mary Jane - 31 issues
    12. Jean Grey - 27 issues
    13. Gwenpool - 26 issues
    14. Hellcat - 25 issues (plus 243 issues of Patsy Walker)
    15. Storm - 25 issues
    16. Rogue - 20 issues
    17. Scarlet Witch - 20 issues
    18. Domino - 18 issues
    19. Black Cat - 14 issues
    20. Gamora - 5 issues
    Black Widow’s issue count is fairly low; even if you don’t include her original solo in Amazing Adventures, her co-billing in Daredevil, her team-ups, or her other adventures serialized in different titles, she should be around 65 issues.

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