Who is Marvel's flagship female?

[JudicatorPrime]

I don’t know why they don’t even try to give Sue the opportunity to have more of a presence. Marvel doesn’t even have her show up outside of a Fantastic Four book like the male members of her team and I don’t understand why.

Sorry about brushing the open wound, Crimz. Maybe the two women can team up and become the greatest duo since Captain America & Falcon, Power Man & Iron Fist, Cloak & Dagger, etc., etc.?

[Snoop Dogg]

it's not a competition we don't have to pit the ladies against each other just give em all more books JUST GIVE EM ALL MORE BOOKS

boom-boom is marvel's flagship female btw

[Crimz]

Sorry about brushing the open wound, Crimz. Maybe the two women can team up and become the greatest duo since Captain America & Falcon, Power Man & Iron Fist, Cloak & Dagger, etc., etc.?

The problem with Monica is that for some reason Marvel doesn’t know what to do with her. It was a missed opportunity to not push her (and Adam) after Ultimates. If a character is a particular writers favorite then when their run with them is done, the character is usually sent to limbo. I think Ewing like Monica and Adam, but because they aren’t the most popular when he was done another writer didn’t use them. I think the same thing happened with Lightning after No Surrender.

We have to hope a writer likes her enough to have a good pitch, or hope that Marvel finally sees her potential and asks a writer to make a book. It’s frustrating to hope for things to happen, especially when it seems like a no-brainer.

[MajorHoy]

The problem here, which Nyssane is rightfully trying to address by going back and examining issue count, is that it’s really hard to *make* something iconic, especially in comics where everything has the weight of history on it. Even things that do become successful out of the blue tend to have some kind of history backing them up (e.g. Spider-Gwen). But Marvel’s own history poses a problem here; they don’t have an iconic character like Wonder Woman that had a sustained popularity in the Golden Age and a Silver Age revival.

Well considering that Marvel Comics itself didn't really begin as a superhero universe until Fantastic Four #1 in 1961, it's hard to find a female who really had a major solo-presence dating back to the beginnings of Marvel. The earliest female characters were primarily only team members, and it unfortunately seems only the males had a shot at solo series in the early years. (May have been that early Marvel was using the age-old assumption that the primary audience for superhero comic books was young boys?)

[Digifiend]

They did try doing female led titles in the golden age. Miss America's solo book didn't last long though. After only one issue the comic became a magazine (did the comic flop, I wonder?), and after another five, her feature in the mag was replaced by Patsy Walker, who wasn't a superhero back then.
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Miss_America_Comic_Books

The only big successes from the 40s are Captain America, Namor, and Human Torch. No ladies. The first two were brought back in the 60s and Torch got a legacy character (Johnny Storm), though Jim Hammond did subsequently also return.

[MajorHoy]

They did try doing female led titles in the golden age. Miss America's solo book didn't last long though. After only one issue the comic became a magazine (did the comic flop, I wonder?), and after another five, her feature in the mag was replaced by Patsy Walker, who wasn't a superhero back then.

In 1948, they also had series with Sun Girl and with Namora, but it looks like each of those only made it as far as issue #3? Venus was another female lead in her own book in 1948, and it looks like that lasted nineteen issues.

And during the Atlas days of the 1950s, there was "Lorna the Jungle Queen / Jungle Girl" with a total of 26 issues?

[pageturner]

Carol and Nat are at the forefront right now.

[responsarbre]

They did try doing female led titles in the golden age. Miss America's solo book didn't last long though. After only one issue the comic became a magazine (did the comic flop, I wonder?), and after another five, her feature in the mag was replaced by Patsy Walker, who wasn't a superhero back then.
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Miss_America_Comic_Books

The only big successes from the 40s are Captain America, Namor, and Human Torch. No ladies. The first two were brought back in the 60s and Torch got a legacy character (Johnny Storm), though Jim Hammond did subsequently also return.

Yeah, there wasn't a big female hit for Atlas in the 40s along the lines of Wondie, and none of the women from Atlas got fully revived under Marvel like Cap, Namor or the Torch.

Marvel Comics proper didn't even attempt to do female superhero solos until the 70s (!!!!) when the women's lib movement came into vogue. Black Widow's feature in Amazing Adventures was first, followed by The Cat (Tigra) and Shanna the She-Devil, and later, Ms. Marvel, Spider-Woman and She-Hulk.

[kjn]

But the thing is that it's all about writing. A rogues gallery can be created, new dynamics can be created with a supporting cast. Wolverine is just as associated with the X-Men as Storm and Jean. They too can be made solo characters without there X-Men status being jeopardized because, as you said, Wolverine is a viable solo and team character. There are so many characters on teams brimming with potential and to write them off would be a waste. A perfect example of this is Vision. The book written by Tom King was brilliant and if he was written off as a team only character then we would never have gotten that book or Viv.

I'm not sure I agree. Some characters were constructed in such a way that they are very hard to do anything with them, outside of a specific context. And I'm afraid both Jean Grey and Sue Storm are examples of that. They were crafted as not only members of a team, but as good trophy wifes or girlfriends of the leading man of the ensemble. Fundamentally, there is not much you can do story-wise with such a character.

Wolverine was created differently, and here I want to compare him with Catwoman. While both are adjuncts of bigger franchises (X-Men and Batman, respectively), they were used as a contrast and a challenge from the start. I think that's what makes them viable solo breakout characters.

I also think that any discussion about the women of Marvel would be incomplete without mentioning Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane Watson. MJW is in many ways similar to Lois Lane in that she both affirms and challenges the dual nature of Peter Parker and Spiderman. Gwen Stacy is similar to Jean Grey in that she appears to be another good girl trophy girlfriend, and that her most memorable storyline ends with her death.

[Keyotheseasons]

I'm not sure I agree. Some characters were constructed in such a way that they are very hard to do anything with them, outside of a specific context. And I'm afraid both Jean Grey and Sue Storm are examples of that. They were crafted as not only members of a team, but as good trophy wifes or girlfriends of the leading man of the ensemble. Fundamentally, there is not much you can do story-wise with such a character.

Wolverine was created differently, and here I want to compare him with Catwoman. While both are adjuncts of bigger franchises (X-Men and Batman, respectively), they were used as a contrast and a challenge from the start. I think that's what makes them viable solo breakout characters.

I also think that any discussion about the women of Marvel would be incomplete without mentioning Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane Watson. MJW is in many ways similar to Lois Lane in that she both affirms and challenges the dual nature of Peter Parker and Spiderman. Gwen Stacy is similar to Jean Grey in that she appears to be another good girl trophy girlfriend, and that her most memorable storyline ends with her death.

I see what you are saying, but Reed, Johnny and Ben get to gallivant around the MU unhindered by their archetypes. I think a solo series or a team book (separate from the F4, maybe the Lady Liberators, etc.) where Sue is the focus is long overdue. And now that the Future Foundation is currently not in the picture and her kids were aged up, now is the perfect time to make up for lost time in my opinion.

[kjn]

I see what you are saying, but Reed, Johnny and Ben get to gallivant around the MU unhindered by their archetypes. I think a solo series or a team book (separate from the F4, maybe the Lady Liberators, etc.) where Sue is the focus is long overdue. And now that the Future Foundation is currently not in the picture and her kids were aged up, now is the perfect time to make up for lost time in my opinion.

That Reed, Johnny, and Ben can break free from the F4 is because their archetypes can work as standalones. The scientist-leader, the impulsive teen, and the dependable straight man can all function independently. The good supporting girlfriend or wife cannot. The character must be changed in rather fundamental ways to function on its own.

Not saying it can't be done, but it'd take a really skilled writer and a lot of luck to manage that, and you'd be working against the history of the character.

In any case, if I were to take a bet on the future flagship superheroine—Marvel or DC—I'd put my money on Kamala Khan, if the transition to Saladin Ahmed is successful. Ms Marvel manages to put together and connect several elements that I think comes together into something genuinely new, original, and appealing.

ETA: G Willow Wilson's post So About That Whole Thing has several relevant points to this, and is good reading.

[Crimz]

I'm not sure I agree. Some characters were constructed in such a way that they are very hard to do anything with them, outside of a specific context. And I'm afraid both Jean Grey and Sue Storm are examples of that. They were crafted as not only members of a team, but as good trophy wifes or girlfriends of the leading man of the ensemble. Fundamentally, there is not much you can do story-wise with such a character.

Wolverine was created differently, and here I want to compare him with Catwoman. While both are adjuncts of bigger franchises (X-Men and Batman, respectively), they were used as a contrast and a challenge from the start. I think that's what makes them viable solo breakout characters.

I also think that any discussion about the women of Marvel would be incomplete without mentioning Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane Watson. MJW is in many ways similar to Lois Lane in that she both affirms and challenges the dual nature of Peter Parker and Spiderman. Gwen Stacy is similar to Jean Grey in that she appears to be another good girl trophy girlfriend, and that her most memorable storyline ends with her death.

That Reed, Johnny, and Ben can break free from the F4 is because their archetypes can work as standalones. The scientist-leader, the impulsive teen, and the dependable straight man can all function independently. The good supporting girlfriend or wife cannot. The character must be changed in rather fundamental ways to function on its own.

Not saying it can't be done, but it'd take a really skilled writer and a lot of luck to manage that, and you'd be working against the history of the character.

In any case, if I were to take a bet on the future flagship superheroine—Marvel or DC—I'd put my money on Kamala Khan, if the transition to Saladin Ahmed is successful. Ms Marvel manages to put together and connect several elements that I think comes together into something genuinely new, original, and appealing.

ETA: G Willow Wilson's post So About That Whole Thing has several relevant points to this, and is good reading.

How the character began is not what the character is now. Sue has grown to be more than some trophy wife and it's 2019, there should be no reason to keep her and Jean subscribed to the sexism of the 60s. In media the wife of a family is still the least utilized and considered naggy, only there to enhance the male members story. Sue should not be confined that role anymore. These characters are meant to continue to grow and because of 60s origin she is still underdeveloped that is a problem, but one that provides opportunity. A writer has a little more creative freedom than with other long-running characters so they can really craft a personality and objective for them beyond being centered around the men in their lives. Of course it would take a talented writer, but doesn't most things?

There is potential and opportunity to make these characters more than they are right now and it would be a disservice to not capitalize on it. They have already started with Jean Grey, by having her more important in the X-Men and having led her own team, it's well overdue for Sue to get a push. I don't want her to be the flagship, I want her to be more important in the MU and treated better than she has, not beholden to the misogyny of the past. She should at least not be treated as lesser than her male teammates who get shots at solo's/mini's and guest appear in other books.

[Digifiend]

Before Secret Wars, Sue did join SHIELD. That's no longer an option of course, but there must be other options for her.

[ed2962]

I'm not sure I agree. Some characters were constructed in such a way that they are very hard to do anything with them, outside of a specific context. And I'm afraid both Jean Grey and Sue Storm are examples of that. They were crafted as not only members of a team, but as good trophy wifes or girlfriends of the leading man of the ensemble. Fundamentally, there is not much you can do story-wise with such a character.

Wolverine was created differently, and here I want to compare him with Catwoman. While both are adjuncts of bigger franchises (X-Men and Batman, respectively), they were used as a contrast and a challenge from the start. I think that's what makes them viable solo breakout characters.

I also think that any discussion about the women of Marvel would be incomplete without mentioning Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane Watson. MJW is in many ways similar to Lois Lane in that she both affirms and challenges the dual nature of Peter Parker and Spiderman. Gwen Stacy is similar to Jean Grey in that she appears to be another good girl trophy girlfriend, and that her most memorable storyline ends with her death.

I slightly disagree with that. There are any number of say TV shows where the lead was a female ( or homemaker or girl next door )and were conceived of as part of an ensemble cat but spun off into their own show. I know superhero comics are a different thing, but I don't think that a former perception of a character as "the girl friend" has to be a hindrance when it comes to inventing story ideas.

I think the problem with the silver age Marvel females ( Sue, Wasp, Jean Grey) is that editorial didn't have the vision to develop them as solo stars. Maybe cuz Sue and Jan were married and Jean was a member of an unpopular title ( X-Men was not a big hit in the 60's).

[MajorHoy]

Yeah, there wasn't a big female hit for Atlas in the 40s along the lines of Wondie, and none of the women from Atlas got fully revived under Marvel like Cap, Namor or the Torch.

Marvel Comics proper didn't even attempt to do female superhero solos until the 70s (!!!!) when the women's lib movement came into vogue. Black Widow's feature in Amazing Adventures was first, followed by The Cat (Tigra) and Shanna the She-Devil, . . .

Don't forget . . .

Night Nurse! (cover-dated November 1972)

Also, starting in 1977, Marvel published

Red Sonja, which lasted for fifteen issues.
(But she wasn't a character Marvel owned outright.)