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  1. #211
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chamber-music View Post
    OG Wasp, Janet van Dyne deserves more of a push. She is alive and in comics again but is being used as Tony's side chick in Iron Man, Nadia's worried Step-mom in Unstoppable Wasp and B-plot character in the Avengers.
    "Side-chick", you mean Tony's in a relationship with someone else and cheating on that person with Janet. I thought merely she and Tony were dating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    They did Jan so dirty.

    Janet van Dyne has had a lot of damage done to her. She was the one who coined the name "The Avengers" In-Universe, but she's been diminished by the toxic crap they did to her and Hank's story, and then the aftermath of that where they had Wasp and Hank continue dating (making Wasp look like the "battered housewife") and reconciling and un-reconciling, then they killed her off for a while. And then Ultimate Wasp, the modern contemporary version that's supposed to make her cool again came out as a pro-incest shipper of Ultimate Wanda/Pietro (I s--t you not) and then got eaten by the Blob in the single most defining panel of the entire Ultimate Universe.

    The classic Marvel Revolution of the 60s didn't have good female characters in general but Janet van Dyne was the best female hero that Stan Lee wrote. It was Ant-Man and the Wasp, and not Ant Man and the Ant-Lady. So that was cool.

    Marvel has had bad attitudes to female characters over the years. Like Spider-Man editor Jim Salicrup objected to Venom being a woman as pitched by David Michelinie thinking a woman wasn't compelling enough to be a Spider-Man villain. Then Mark Gruenwald ordering Roger Stern to boot Monica Rambeau's Captain Marvel (the first female Cpt. Marvel) out of the Avengers leadership in favor of Steve Rogers specifically ordering that Monica be shown as incompetent. Stern refused and quit instead. Heck even someone like Chris Claremont has had blind spots. I mean Jim Shooter wanted Phoenix to be X-Men's Doctor Doom insisting originally that Phoenix go bad and stay bad and live and continue as a recurring villain but Claremont couldn't see Phoenix have that kind of tragic agency and saw her as joined to the hip of Cyclops and insisted on redeeming her after he went beyond Shooter's concept and had her destroy a star system. The end result of Jean's tragic death, her resurrection and Cyclops dumping his wife to go to his love story, is that Jean herself became diminished in later X-Men stories.

    It's been a trend with them...and their attitudes shown by editors and others is fundamentally macho and a dated '50s-'60s male entitlement.

  2. #212
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Black Cat is actually getting an ongoing in 2019, but then she's more or less Marvel Catwoman.
    At least we think she's getting an "on-going". Marvel does have a nasty habit of starting new books then a few issues later announcing it was just a limited-/mini-series.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Zatanna is also a major female hero in DC.
    A major female hero who's last solo-series ended back in 2011 with issue #16. (Though the changes from Flashpoint/the New52 probably was involved in that as well.)

    -------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Marvel is doing that tho , We are getting stuff like X-23( and Honey Badger), You are getting Moon Girl,You are getting Wasp. You are getting Iron Heart, You are getting Shuri, You are getting Ms Marvel, You are getting Ghost Spider, You are getting Squirrel Girl etc. They aren't just pushing Captain Marvel. Now where is the push of Black Widow, She Hulk, Jessica Jones, Daughters of Dragon, Wasp, Spectrum, Spider Woman, Mockingbird, etc in this picture I don't know but they are pushing other female characters it just looks like younger generation is getting the main focus.
    But how many of those other characters have long-running on-going series that don't end before reaching issue #13? The few that met that criteria in January are titles that had less than 15,000 copies ordered through Diamond. So either they're doing really well in other markets that Diamond doesn't handle/report, or Marvel is keeping them still going for other reasons.

  3. #213
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    However, DC's more successful female characters, aside from Wonder Woman, tend to be the female-counterparts of male characters or tied-in with popular male characters.
    Neither Black Canary nor Vixen have made it to the same levels as Batgirl or Supergirl in terms of decent-selling solo titles. (And Power Girl has been the female-counterpart to Golden Age version of Superman.)
    I think one reason why DC has been more successful historically in their female characters than Marvel, paradoxically enough, comes from Marvel's more character- and personality-oriented culture. Superman and Batman are little more than vehicles for various forms of power fantasies or wish fulfillment, so characters like Catwoman, Lois Lane, Batgirl, Harley Quinn, and to some degree Supergirl were used to give contrast to them, and to challenge them in various ways. Thus they gained a personality.

    But many male Marvel characters, as constructed, didn't need that contrast or challenge: it was built into them from the start. So Jean Grey, Susan Storm, and Gwen Stacy ended up as little more than the perfect wife or girlfrend, in effect another form of wish fulfillment but seen from the male side. It can also explain why Jennifer Walters worked so well as a character, because she was made to contrast with Bruce Banner.

    (Wonder Woman is very strange and special case here, probably best discussed in her forum.)
    Last edited by kjn; 03-06-2019 at 02:00 PM.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  4. #214
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    why does it have to be just one? Marvel doesn't have a flagship male at this point
    The J-man

    I post via my phone a lot, therefore I make the occasional grammatical error. Not an excuse just forewarning you. Feel free to call me out I won't mind.

  5. #215
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    why does it have to be just one? Marvel doesn't have a flagship male at this point
    Still Spidey.

    Sure in movies, Spider-Man has competition with Iron Man, but in terms of long-term merchandise, games, and toys and other stuff, Spider-Man is still perched on the flagpole. The only problem is that Spider-Man's rights are with Sony and they are not going to let it go so long as Sony Pictures exist. So Iron Man has to be one for the MCU and by extension with Marvel corporate and the comics even if he's not as much of a merch icon like Peter, hence for branding reasons, Iron Man and Spider-Man have this bond in the movies even if it doesn't fully make sense. Spider-Man is also an all-ages character, so that puts him ahead of say, Wolverine. His most successful film, Logan, is rated R and James Mangold, director of that movie pointed out that once Disney bought Fox, you can kiss R-Rated movies goodbye.

    Iron Man's popularity in the movies doesn't lead to popularity in sales in the comics necessarily, mostly because the movies are so different. In the comics, Iron Man is still a womanizer whereas all the MCU movies revolve on the Tony and Pepper love story which the comics have not taken to the same extent. None of Iron Man's classic "rogues" are really featured in a big way or recognizable form. Comics' Tony is also an alcoholic or recovering one whereas movie Tony is not as much of a lush. Black Panther 2018 is suited to be an all-ages mascot by comparison. He's basically a cool King dude.

    So a female flagship character can step right in...based on some of the reviews of Captain Marvel that have come out, I have doubts it will be Colonel Danvers.

  6. #216
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post

    So a female flagship character can step right in...based on some of the reviews of Captain Marvel that have come out, I have doubts it will be Colonel Danvers.
    Why? None of the reviews have said it's bad. The general consensus seems to be that it's an OK film, it will likely still make a lot of money.

    What I wonder is what are Marvel's expectations and goals for the film, if we knew that then we'd be able to tell if it succeeded in what they wanted it to do.
    Get the INVISIBLE WOMAN mini OUT NOW!


    Also check out : The Invisible Woman Appreciation thread!

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    why does it have to be just one? Marvel doesn't have a flagship male at this point
    It's Peter Parker.

    Unlike say Green Lantern or Flash franchise-you are not being FORCE to choose one nor is the company destroying any and all competition to them. That is why you don't feel like there is one flagship person.
    It's Peter Parker but he never gets in the way of others. SO that is why no one at times feels it's one guy and one guy only.

    On the female side there has NOT been that investment like you see with Wonder Woman, Batgirl, Harley, Supergirl, Catwoman and now Batwoman.
    Somebody was willing to use all of them at some point.

    Outside of She Hulk & Carol-the others have not had CONSISTENT shots.
    Not have one solo and another 15 years later nonsense.

    I would say Carol is it based on Marvel MAKING it her based on the work of Kelly Sue DeConnick. She did what Priest did with Black Panther. Marvel decided to ride that train.

    In reality that title is up in the air because too many females are making cases for it being them. Despite in all reality it doesn't have to be ONE.

    Ms Marvel has a case.
    So does Squirrel Girl.
    So does Moon Girl.
    Shuri has a case.
    She Hulk says HI.
    Sue Storm and the X-Men Women all got cases.
    Don't forget Jessica Jones & Mary Jane Watson.

    You gotta treat them like the guys-there is on official one. Carol like Peter can claim it but there are others who can too.

  8. #218
    Fantastic Member Chainsaw Vigilante's Avatar
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    There is none. Marvel has had a wide breadth of female heroes with different powers and personalities since their early development years in the Silver Age, while Wonder Woman was a dominant force in DC and the their female hero cast lagged behind (I mean two of the other female heroes of note were Superman "clones" and another was greatly overshadowed by Hawkman) and were largely bland until the mid to late 70's or so. For that reason Marvel didn't have one super popular character to push or that gained all the attention so they all developed independently and weren't compared to male counterparts (since so many DC female heroes were tied directly to male ones). By the mid 70's Marvel had a pretty strong cast of relatable/more grounded female heroes with strong backstories and diverse personalities (much like their male heroes), but there was never a push for flagship characters like with DC.
    In the Silver Age I'd guess, Sue, Jean, Janet, Medusa, and Wanda were the most popular/used female superheroes (Crystal and Sif deserving some mention), but in the modern age they were all either missing for years (Jean, Sue), had their characters hurt by poor writing/tropes (Wanda, Medusa), or just haven't gotten enough play (Janet).
    Storm has been a steady character since the mid 70's, but even at her most popular during 90's people thought it a bit crazy to compare her to Wonder Woman (I remember the Marvel vs. DC reactions), and that was when DC was at a low point. Ms. Marvel/Carol is being pushed, but it feels inorganic much like the Inhumans push.

    I don't think Marvel has, had, or ever will have a single flagship female hero, and I'm fine with that and think they are better for it. DC has itself learned that it's more important to have a great diverse cast that can stand on their own (but WW has been such an icon for so many decades that she will always be "the one").

  9. #219
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    why does it have to be just one? Marvel doesn't have a flagship male at this point
    Spider-Man is obviously their flagship male character based on both popularity and sales.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  10. #220
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    I think Marvel tries not to limit themselves like DC. They want to expand as much as possible. I feel like DC relies too much on "flagships" that it makes everyone else live in their shadow.
    "You set off the Terrigen Bomb giving the world every excuse to fear the word Inhuman."

    "This is-- this is what Jean felt like..."

    "If you are a mutant, in this world, you are guilty until proven innocent."

  11. #221
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    I think Marvel tries not to limit themselves like DC. They want to expand as much as possible. I feel like DC relies too much on "flagships" that it makes everyone else live in their shadow.
    I think DC "relies" on "flagships" only from the standpoint of that's what sells the most!
    They have several successful flagships outside of just the "trinity", so those get exposure as well. I think Marvel would LOVE to have as many successful, long-running flagships as DC, but they also have the quirk that they relaunch books with "new #1 issue!" way too quickly, reducing the status of several long-running characters in some eyes.

  12. #222
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    In the case of DC, they can't avoid flagships because of the fact that you know...they were there first.

    Superman is the first superhero. Batman is the first real no-powers hero with the most iconic sidekick and greatest rogues gallery. Wonder Woman is the first major female superhero. That's why they are the Trinity.

    Marvel on the other hand needed to catch up real quick and real fast. Superman was already more than 20 years old when Fantastic Four#1 hit the stands. The one character who did that was Spider-Man. Not even 20 years since his first appearance he became so iconic that he was presented as equal stature in Superman vs. The Amazing Spider-Man (even Batman in stories at the time wasn't treated with as much respect as Spidey was in that story). Spider-Man quickly became the third iconic superhero, and for a long time, regular people thought Superman, Batman and Spider-Man belonged to the same universe, since Spider-Man was, at the time but not so much now, bigger than Marvel.

  13. #223
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    I think DC "relies" on "flagships" only from the standpoint of that's what sells the most!
    They have several successful flagships outside of just the "trinity", so those get exposure as well. I think Marvel would LOVE to have as many successful, long-running flagships as DC, but they also have the quirk that they relaunch books with "new #1 issue!" way too quickly, reducing the status of several long-running characters in some eyes.
    True, but I think it hindered other interesting characters from gaining the same momentum. Thanks to cartoons and video games were they able to give some acknowledgement to the DC universe. If we look at media, we can see that they are taking the risks Marvel has been taking with their streaming service. Marvel made a Jessica Jones series and they're making an Eternals film. DC has just dipped their toes in non-Batman waters with Doom Patrol and Shazam.

    Marvel kinda fell in that hole with X-Men before, but they've managed to make the Avengers a bigger thing.
    "You set off the Terrigen Bomb giving the world every excuse to fear the word Inhuman."

    "This is-- this is what Jean felt like..."

    "If you are a mutant, in this world, you are guilty until proven innocent."

  14. #224
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In the case of DC, they can't avoid flagships because of the fact that you know...they were there first.

    Superman is the first superhero.
    The first after Dr. Occult of course!


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