What Does It Take For Straight Readers To Accept That A Character Is Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual?

[Sutekh]

I assume str8 readers who have no problem with homosexuality accept it; as they would any other reveal (of origins, or powers, or childhood). Those that don't... just won't. No amount of good storytelling, allusions or focus will change that. All we can hope is, in time, their views change and they become more accepting

For me it's less about accepting or rejecting the sexuality itself, than it is about accepting the storytelling going on.

Comic-book Hercules, for instance, is no more the Hercules of myth and legend than comic-book Thor is the Thor of Norse legend. He's been portrayed as a buffoonish Falstaffian figure, ridiculously heterosexual (so much so that the Masters of Evil assault on Avengers Mansion revolved around using prostitutes to seduce Hercules so they could use his access to gain entry), and not particularly interested in ancient Greek concepts like mentoring young men in the eromenos mode. (And it being a running gag around Amadeus Cho, having to fend off the assumption that he was Herc's lover.)

So I'm not going to feel like comic-book Hercules is having anything 'stolen' from him if he is declared to be 100% straight, or kinda/sorta bisexual (since, even if Marvel chose to add that bit of Greek context to the character, it's *not* like what we think of as modern day bisexuality, and would be far from 'inclusive' of any current sexuality, since the eromenos culture didn't practice any sort of mutual bisexuality, and would have thought it wrong for the senior partner in the relationship to submit to the junior partner...). In this specific case, Hercules being portrayed 'realistically' could be far more offensive to real world bisexuals than him just remaining straight.

Generally, I'm not one to care much about gender role stuff, and, in some cases, as with Rictor and Shatterstar, that sort of 'suddenly sexuality' reveal can liven up characters that had mostly been abandoned and forgotten anyway. The rush to 'claim' anyone who loves a same-gendered friend (such as Ororo and Yukio, mentioned upthread) as bisexual, or to 'claim' as bisexual someone who kisses, or even sleeps with, a single person, seems, to me, to be devaluing the concept. Lot's of real world people explore, or have a single exception, or live in the closet long enough to marry and have kids before coming out later in life. Gambit kissed a dude-friend once who had been turned into a woman. That's not 'bisexual,' IMO. America Chavez prefers the ladies, but slept with a dude once. That's not, IMO, 'bisexual,' either.

Sexuality is about attraction, not who you happen to have slept with.

A lot of those poll options are weird, for that sort of reason. In bed with someone? Proves that they slept with X, not that they are *attracted* to X. Assuming that sex proved anything about attraction would be like assuming that people who masturbate are sexually attracted to their hands.

Character said 'I'm gay!' People can be wrong about that sort of thing. People can also lie about that sort of thing. People can even be right and truthful, and later come to the realization that their preferences have changed / expanded / contracted.

And since this is a serial medium, what any given writer says, or even the creator says, can change, as it's the company that owns the character, and they can change their mind at any point and 'un-gay' the character. Look at the issue about Storm and race, intended by her creator to be transracial, but now so firmly 'claimed' as black that people lose their minds when that's brought up. Twenty years from now, Marvel could change their mind again, and everyone could be bisexual, or asexual, or whatever.

I think it's less important to care what other people chose to accept or reject about a given character and just enjoy what we've got (and avoid anything we aren't enjoying). It's doesn't affect my enjoyment of Hercules as a comic book character if he's straight, bisexual or exploring eromenos (which, as I mentioned above, really isn't terrible inclusive of real-world bisexuality, and could even have some uncomfortable associations). It certainly won't affect my enjoyment of the character if every other reader on the planet is nerd-raging to high Olympus that he's being 'shoving a gay agenda down our throats' or 'being straight washed by the CIS gestapo.' There's more sexually diverse characters out there than ever before, so it's kind of cool to see, and I feel like there's less relevance to reading between the lines of Storm and Yukio's friendship looking for romantic subtext, when there are some actual same-sex couples out there, like Wiccan and Hulkling.

[sifighter]

Personally I think has to do with a characters history or past actions, for example from the actions of characters like Wiccan and Hulkling it's clear that they are gay characters by their relationship while a character like Iceman is just called gay without any proof he is and while I accept that he is a gay character now that the writer has come out and said that he is, but I think it would be better if they tried to show that he really is gay.

Personally a characters sexuality to me doesn't matter as long as they are fully fleshed out well written characters.

[Cloudman]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS]Well, I'll say this... Another fan telling me that <insert character here> is gay, lesbian and or bisexual because "all the signs are/were there" without providing concrete proof simply isn't gonna cut it...

This.

Headcanon =/= actual canon.

[Immortal Weapon]

A character's sexuality doesn't matter to me. Runaways and Young Avengers were among the first comics I brought when I got into the medium and both books prominent featured gay characters whom I like. All I want is a character I get behind.

[Fokken]

Sutekh.
Yup.
Sutekh said it all and said it brilliantly.

[Anduinel]

For me to accept it, the character has to unequivocally state their attraction for the same sex in some fashion. It doesn't have to be as...*ahem*...dramatic as Northstar's coming out scene, but it has to be something that can't be easily walked back on. But that's mostly because Marvel and DC skated on the whole diversity thing for way too long before they started pretending to give a shit and made it a selling point. Good on them for doing better these days, but that doesn't mean they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

ETA: Though, given the thread title, I guess I should add that I'm not straight, just picky.

[Star_Jammer]

For me it's less about accepting or rejecting the sexuality itself, than it is about accepting the storytelling going on.

Comic-book Hercules, for instance, is no more the Hercules of myth and legend than comic-book Thor is the Thor of Norse legend. He's been portrayed as a buffoonish Falstaffian figure, ridiculously heterosexual (so much so that the Masters of Evil assault on Avengers Mansion revolved around using prostitutes to seduce Hercules so they could use his access to gain entry), and not particularly interested in ancient Greek concepts like mentoring young men in the eromenos mode. (And it being a running gag around Amadeus Cho, having to fend off the assumption that he was Herc's lover.)

So I'm not going to feel like comic-book Hercules is having anything 'stolen' from him if he is declared to be 100% straight, or kinda/sorta bisexual (since, even if Marvel chose to add that bit of Greek context to the character, it's *not* like what we think of as modern day bisexuality, and would be far from 'inclusive' of any current sexuality, since the eromenos culture didn't practice any sort of mutual bisexuality, and would have thought it wrong for the senior partner in the relationship to submit to the junior partner...). In this specific case, Hercules being portrayed 'realistically' could be far more offensive to real world bisexuals than him just remaining straight.

Generally, I'm not one to care much about gender role stuff, and, in some cases, as with Rictor and Shatterstar, that sort of 'suddenly sexuality' reveal can liven up characters that had mostly been abandoned and forgotten anyway. The rush to 'claim' anyone who loves a same-gendered friend (such as Ororo and Yukio, mentioned upthread) as bisexual, or to 'claim' as bisexual someone who kisses, or even sleeps with, a single person, seems, to me, to be devaluing the concept. Lot's of real world people explore, or have a single exception, or live in the closet long enough to marry and have kids before coming out later in life. Gambit kissed a dude-friend once who had been turned into a woman. That's not 'bisexual,' IMO. America Chavez prefers the ladies, but slept with a dude once. That's not, IMO, 'bisexual,' either.

Sexuality is about attraction, not who you happen to have slept with.

A lot of those poll options are weird, for that sort of reason. In bed with someone? Proves that they slept with X, not that they are *attracted* to X. Assuming that sex proved anything about attraction would be like assuming that people who masturbate are sexually attracted to their hands.

Character said 'I'm gay!' People can be wrong about that sort of thing. People can also lie about that sort of thing. People can even be right and truthful, and later come to the realization that their preferences have changed / expanded / contracted.

And since this is a serial medium, what any given writer says, or even the creator says, can change, as it's the company that owns the character, and they can change their mind at any point and 'un-gay' the character. Look at the issue about Storm and race, intended by her creator to be transracial, but now so firmly 'claimed' as black that people lose their minds when that's brought up. Twenty years from now, Marvel could change their mind again, and everyone could be bisexual, or asexual, or whatever.

I think it's less important to care what other people chose to accept or reject about a given character and just enjoy what we've got (and avoid anything we aren't enjoying). It's doesn't affect my enjoyment of Hercules as a comic book character if he's straight, bisexual or exploring eromenos (which, as I mentioned above, really isn't terrible inclusive of real-world bisexuality, and could even have some uncomfortable associations). It certainly won't affect my enjoyment of the character if every other reader on the planet is nerd-raging to high Olympus that he's being 'shoving a gay agenda down our throats' or 'being straight washed by the CIS gestapo.' There's more sexually diverse characters out there than ever before, so it's kind of cool to see, and I feel like there's less relevance to reading between the lines of Storm and Yukio's friendship looking for romantic subtext, when there are some actual same-sex couples out there, like Wiccan and Hulkling.

So beautiful.

[Tracer Bullet]

It's just a difficult thing because sexuality can be complicated and the subject often gets treated in such a salacious, sensationalistic way, even when it's applauded.

[ed2962]

It depends...? I think with a couple of the examples you gave it's just a case of fans not accepting change. If Wonder Woman puts on long pants, there's people who won't accept it.

[America / Bucky / Russia]

Sutekh.
Yup.
Sutekh said it all and said it brilliantly.

Sutekh_2.jpg

Where I tread, I leave nothing but dust and darkness. I find that good.

[JudicatorPrime]

I assume str8 readers who have no problem with homosexuality accept it; as they would any other reveal (of origins, or powers, or childhood). Those that don't... just won't. No amount of good storytelling, allusions or focus will change that. All we can hope is, in time, their views change and they become more accepting

I suspect with many people acceptance is a complicated process. I have a straight friend who doesn't embrace homosexuality, but who does feel that it's everyone's individual right to seek their own form of contentment and happiness. You won't ever see her at a Pride Parade or anything like that, but whenever an opportunity to right a wrong and push back injustice presents itself, she's there to fight until the bitter end. When I asked her about it -- because I've heard some of her personal views on gays, and they're not all flattering, given her religious upbringing -- she always responds that she isn't fighting necessarily because she loves LGBT causes, but because she loves freedom, equality and basic human dignity more. She may not agree with the gay lifestyle, but nevertheless, she'll put her life on the line to make sure that the America that her children will someday inherit excludes no one. In her own way, whether she realizes it or not, she's sowing the seeds of acceptance for generations to come.

[HUTHAIFA]

If we pulled the controversial part of this question and just asked what would it take for a reader to accept an unexpected change or revelation of a character and should this change be permanent . I think we might get honest discussion. I find many of these outings to be clumsy. I find a lot of storytelling to be clumsy when creative decides to make super hero books represent and reflect the real world. Its an admirable and necessary goal though.

[MyriVerse]

If a characters has been around for decades, then I expect decades worth of innuendos, else I won't accept it ever.

But for new characters, all it takes is a panel.

[Raye]

I voted "They have to be shown saying; "I am gay, lebian or bisexual"" because that is the most clear option, but I would accept that OR kissing/sleeping with someone, especially if it's followed up on/continued later. But in those cases it is sometimes possible to rationalize it as some kind of one time thing, maybe mind control or whatever is involved... It's comics, y'know? that sort of thing can be easily retconned or glossed over later, even if the story is meaning to show a character is gay or bi. Generally, I'd accept it but... just not quite the same amount of weight as someone flat out saying it.

[MasterOfMagnetism]

A lot of those poll options are weird, for that sort of reason. In bed with someone? Proves that they slept with X, not that they are *attracted* to X. Assuming that sex proved anything about attraction would be like assuming that people who masturbate are sexually attracted to their hands.

Character said 'I'm gay!' People can be wrong about that sort of thing. People can also lie about that sort of thing. People can even be right and truthful, and later come to the realization that their preferences have changed / expanded / contracted.

I'll explain why I made some of those poll options. I wanted the options to reflect the way certain characters have been outed.

John Byrne has said that Northstar was "gay from day 2", he created Alpha Flight to be a team that fought the X-Men in one issue but when the team got their own book he decided that Northstar would be gay. Because of Jim Shooter's "no gays in the Marvel univese" policy at the time Byrne couldn't explicitly state that Northstar is gay so he included several hints and innuendos until when he was able he finally had Northstar shout the words; "I am gay!" Ironically I've seen people criticize Northstar's coming out for not being subtle.

Other characters like Rictor, Shatterstar and Prodigy were outed when they were shown kissing another male character. Ultimate Colossus was shown being caught in bed with another man by his father. And the confirmed by a telepath option is obviously because of the teen Iceman and Jean Grey scene.