What Does It Take For Straight Readers To Accept That A Character Is Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual?

[The Whovian]

i dont get why reverse racism is invalid. just because as a minority, my family faces more racism, doesn't mean it isn't racist when my dad talks **** about white people. i hate this mind set that minorities are incapable of racism, we are every bit as capable as whites of being racist. now, it may be a minor issue when compared to the institutionalized things minorites face, but i have called out my family many times when they are being racist against whites.

Thank you for your honesty. This is all I ask for. A open, honest discussion without being one sided. It sounds like you're an amazing dad who's doing the best he can to teach his son real values. And you love him no matter what, which is the right thing to do. He looks up to you and your love is worth so much to him. Thank you for being there for him and loving him.

Since you revealed some things about yourself, I will do the same. Hopefully this will open up some more good discussions and not hostility.

I am a straight white man that is happily married with two older boys. I also have some family members and friends who are black and Hispanic and a sister-in law who is gay. I love them all equally. In fact, my sister-in law is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. Sadly, I can't say the same thing about all straight people that I know, but then no one person defines an entire group of people.

I work with children of all races and diverse families every day, and as a Christian, I love everyone equally regardless of their skin color. What defines a person in inside them, not the color of their skin or sexual preference. Contrary to the LGBT community, Christians do NOT hate gay people. We love everyone, we just don't approve of the lifestyle. There IS a difference.

If I saw someone trying to hurt a gay person or even just insulting them, I guarantee you I would be the first person coming to their defense (and have), because I will NOT tolerate hate speech or violence. But I WILL defend myself and others from harm.

When someone tells me in this thread that I don't understand what is being asked or what I am asking, THAT is offensive to ME because I know all too darn well how ignorant and racist people can be towards my family and friends who are the center of their hate simply because of their different skin color or sexual preference. Again, if someone tried to hurt my sister-in law when I was with her, they would end up going to the hospital. That goes for any of my family or friends and even people I've never met before.

My wife tells me that I should not be so quick to anger, but I've seen too much of it and am sick and tired of people being bullied and threatened who can't stand up for themselves. What really gets me is when children are involved. That really gets my blood boiling. Which is why I work with children from all walks of life. I believe as a Christian that we should live our lives according to the way that Jesus provided for us as an example---Love your neighbor as much as yourself.

[Kieran_Frost]

I think the poll is very simplistic. Most polls are...but to boil this discussion down to 8 options seems pretty limiting. Especially since the last option can be selected along with any of the others and still be true.

I think asking what it will take for people to accept a character as LGBT and then listing different degrees of confirmation, and then having a last option that is not a degree of confirmation, but is instead a comment about how some readers may feel, is flawed.

If we wanted an accurate poll, wouldn't all the answers have to be specific? Like, I think it takes option A and you think it takes option B. Not some people won't recognize any option.

Of course some people will never accept it. But that's not an answer to the question that was asked, is it?

Replace never with nothing... and it IS an answer; it's the 0 in a scale of 0-10. The poll should include a "nothing you do will let it be accepted" option.

[totalsellout]

Thank you for your honesty. This is all I ask for. A open, honest discussion without being one sided. It sounds like you're an amazing dad who's doing the best he can to teach his son real values. And you love him no matter what, which is the right thing to do. He looks up to you and your love is worth so much to him. Thank you for being there for him and loving him.

Since you revealed some things about yourself, I will do the same. Hopefully this will open up some more good discussions and not hostility.

I am a straight white man that is happily married with two older boys. I also have some family members and friends who are black and Hispanic and a sister-in law who is gay. I love them all equally. In fact, my sister-in law is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. Sadly, I can't say the same thing about all straight people that I know, but then no one person defines an entire group of people.

I work with children of all races and diverse families every day, and as a Christian, I love everyone equally regardless of their skin color. What defines a person in inside them, not the color of their skin or sexual preference. Contrary to the LGBT community, Christians do NOT hate gay people. We love everyone, we just don't approve of the lifestyle. There IS a difference.

If I saw someone trying to hurt a gay person or even just insulting them, I guarantee you I would be the first person coming to their defense (and have), because I will NOT tolerate hate speech or violence. But I WILL defend myself and others from harm.

When someone tells me in this thread that I don't understand what is being asked or what I am asking, THAT is offensive to ME because I know all too darn well how ignorant and racist people can be towards my family and friends who are the center of their hate simply because of their different skin color or sexual preference. Again, if someone tried to hurt my sister-in law when I was with her, they would end up going to the hospital. That goes for any of my family or friends and even people I've never met before.

My wife tells me that I should not be so quick to anger, but I've seen too much of it and am sick and tired of people being bullied and threatened who can't stand up for themselves. What really gets me is when children are involved. That really gets my blood boiling. Which is why I work with children from all walks of life. I believe as a Christian that we should live our lives according to the way that Jesus provided for us as an example---Love your neighbor as much as yourself.

thank you very much.

[totalsellout]

You shouldn't hold different posters collectively responsible for their individual posts just because they're gay or supporting of LGBT issues. I believe I've explained this adequately, and multiple times now. It's a theme in this thread...

i assume you mean "responsible for OTHERS' individual posts"? allright, i will try to be more specific in my quotes . i was mainly using "lgbt readers" as a time saving device.

[hawkeyefan]

Replace never with nothing... and it IS an answer; it's the 0 in a scale of 0-10. The poll should include a "nothing you do will let it be accepted" option.

The poll is flawed, Kieran. It doesn't allow for multiple answers when it should. And the last option is not an answer. The question wasn't "can anything be done?" or "can all straight readers learn to accept LGBT characters?" The question is "what will it take?"

If you think it is zero then that means straight readers can never accept such characters, which is clearly not true.

Saying some people will never accept it is the same as saying some will. Which doesn't really bring much to the conversation.

I am not denying that some folks will never accept LGBT Characters no matter what. I think that's very true, sadly.

My point is that having that last option on the poll really served to undermine it.

[Joe Acro]

I just want to address various points made over the past several pages, because they all seem related and all seem to circle back around.

1) This thread is for discussing what it takes for the readership in general to accept a change in the sexual orientation of a character. While discussions about changing a character's gender or ethnicity are related topics, it would be best to reserve them for other threads.

2) The title of the thread and the poll is not intended to offend, but rather is targeting the general heterosexual-reading public. It's always difficult to make a poll to cover every possible answer. I feel like there could have been a few more casual options like "It doesn't take anything. I just roll with it." and it anyone feels like such options should be added now, I'm all for doing that.

3) The title of the thread and the poll assumes that non-heterosexual individuals do not have trouble accepting that a character has changed from heterosexual to not. I don't think that's necessarily true, but again, the goal of the thread is to address those heterosexual readers who do have trouble accepting that a character has changed sexual orientation.

4) Conversely, the question of "how non-heterosexual readers would feel if a homosexual or bisexual character was changed to be heterosexual" has no easy answer, but we can speculate. As well articulated earlier, some (possibly many) would be upset at the change, just as some were upset at the perceived change to Hercules's character.

5) Don't pass the buck on educating people. Maybe they haven't read the past few pages. Maybe they live in a social bubble and have no idea what members of the LGB community think. If you think they're just deliberately being antagonizing, report the post, don't reply to it, and us moderators will look at it. Similarly, if someone refuses to answer your question, that doesn't mean you can try to badger them for an answer.

6) If someone simply wants to answer the poll question and offer their personal take, they shouldn't be scolded, chastised, or shunned simply for answering the original question. And no one should feel like they're being forced to discuss their opinion--but if they're willing, okay. Encourage discussion and if they're willing, okay.

7) Finally, keep negativity to a minimum. Don't insult each other, don't give each other labels, don't close the door on discussion, don't generalize, and don't make assumptions.

There's enough of those on both sides of this argument, when there shouldn't even be just two sides to the argument.

[Kieran_Frost]

The poll is flawed, Kieran. It doesn't allow for multiple answers when it should. And the last option is not an answer. The question wasn't "can anything be done?" or "can all straight readers learn to accept LGBT characters?" The question is "what will it take?"

If you think it is zero then that means straight readers can never accept such characters, which is clearly not true.

Saying some people will never accept it is the same as saying some will. Which doesn't really bring much to the conversation.

I am not denying that some folks will never accept LGBT Characters no matter what. I think that's very true, sadly.

My point is that having that last option on the poll really served to undermine it.

I just don't understand your point I'm afraid. You agree it's a valid reality... but disagree it should be in the poll??? I just don't understand. Sorry. If you objection is it's a negative tone... well sadly those who just won't accept a character is LGBT are negative people. Let's not put our heads in the sand and pretend they don't exist. Confront the reality, that is the only way to truly grow.

[MasterOfMagnetism]

I haven't been keeping track of what everyone has been saying in this thread but I see some people criticizing the poll I made. I admit that I should have allowed for multiple choice, that was a mistake on my part that I didn't realize until after I already made the thread.

I made this thread and poll mostly in response to the way certain people were reacting to the situation about Hercules. I was trying to focus on starting a serious discussion.

I included the final option on the poll because I firmly believe that in certain cases (for example Paul Monroe from Walking Dead) if a character is revealed to be gay, bi, etc. then some readers will simply not accept even if the reveal is handled well and doesn't go against any established canon for the character.

[hawkeyefan]

I just don't understand your point I'm afraid. You agree it's a valid reality... but disagree it should be in the poll??? I just don't understand. Sorry. If you objection is it's a negative tone... well sadly those who just won't accept a character is LGBT are negative people. Let's not put our heads in the sand and pretend they don't exist. Confront the reality, that is the only way to truly grow.

Another poster said that he found the poll insulting because he felt it was asking for the opinion of straight readers, but then that last option, which was the highest voted option, seemed more like an option for people to criticize straight readers. I think that he's partially accurate in that sense. I don't find the poll insulting, but I think it would be better if that last option wasn't there. Not because I think that last option is untrue, but rather because I don't think that it actually answers the question.

Of course some people are never going to accept LGBT characters. We all know this. I just felt the poll, and therefore the conversation, would have been better served by staying more on topic.

Again, I agree with you that it's true....but I also think most straight readers do have a level of acceptance based on how it's presented. Honestly, I would have selected several of the poll options if I could have. I think it would be more productive to talk about those options.

If the last option wasn't on the poll, what would have been your next choice? What do you think straight readers who will accept LGBT characters need to see in order to do so?

I haven't been keeping track of what everyone has been saying in this thread but I see some people criticizing the poll I made. I admit that I should have allowed for multiple choice, that was a mistake on my part that I didn't realize until after I already made the thread.

I made this thread and poll mostly in response to the way certain people were reacting to the situation about Hercules. I was trying to focus on starting a serious discussion.

I included the final option on the poll because I firmly believe that in certain cases (for example Paul Monroe from Walking Dead) if a character is revealed to be gay, bi, etc. then some readers will simply not accept even if the reveal is handled well and doesn't go against any established canon for the character.

Please don't take my criticism of the poll too harshly...that's not how it was meant. All polls are simplifications, and therefore limited. I do think the last option is a fact, but I don't feel like it's an answer to the question, and kind of serves as a distraction.

But other than that criticism, I have found a lot of the discussion very interesting, so thanks for starting the thread.

[JaggedFel]

Depends on the character: new or limited previous apperances sure....established characters who we have actually seen have relationships before execution is paramount

[Awwwvenger]

Another poster said that he found the poll insulting because he felt it was asking for the opinion of straight readers, but then that last option, which was the highest voted option, seemed more like an option for people to criticize straight readers.

But you don't know who voted for that option, so how the vote turned out really can't be put on the LGBT crowd.

I am straight, and I voted that option.

[Kieran_Frost]

I think it would be better if that last option wasn't there. Not because I think that last option is untrue, but rather because I don't think that it actually answers the question.

Of course some people are never going to accept LGBT characters. We all know this. I just felt the poll, and therefore the conversation, would have been better served by staying more on topic.

Again, I agree with you that it's true....

If you agree it true, how does it not answer the question. What will it take to accept a character is LGBT? For some, the answer is they never will. It answers the question, and you agree it happens. I just don't get why it shouldn't be a poll option???

I also think most straight readers do have a level of acceptance based on how it's presented. Honestly, I would have selected several of the poll options if I could have. I think it would be more productive to talk about those options.

If the last option wasn't on the poll, what would have been your next choice? What do you think straight readers who will accept LGBT characters need to see in order to do so?.

I also think the vast majority of str8 readers do have a level of acceptance with it; and by and large get over an outing quickly; because ultimately they don't mind. Sure they personally didn't see the character as LGBT, but like any reveal just go with the flow (we can't love everything about our favourites). But there are clearly still some who don't; and we see that on CBR a lot (sadly).

[Tiamatty]

If you agree it true, how does it not answer the question. What will it take to accept a character is LGBT? For some, the answer is they never will. It answers the question, and you agree it happens. I just don't get why it shouldn't be a poll option???

Nah, the last option shouldn't be there. First of all, most straight people will accept LGBT characters; the thread question doesn't really seem to be aimed at the handful of people who are unwilling to accept it, it's aimed at the people who dispute things like Hercules of Deadpool being bisexual. It's also phrased in a very hostile manner. It's not at all unreasonable for people who, say, dislike the outing of Iceman, to read that last option as an attack on them.

Beyond that, the thread's question seemed to be asking straight people what they accept as proof of a character's sexuality, but that last option is pretty clearly intended for people who are passionate proponents of LGBT content. It's not an option that invites discussion. It actually pushes back against discussion, by creating what is, essentially, a straw man.

The fact that it's the option most chosen contributes to the perception that one side is trying to demonize or shame the other. That might not be the intention, but it's still an undertone.

The other options are all fine, even if the "outed by a psychic" one feels weirdly passive-aggressive. But that last one shouldn't have been put there, and we shouldn't be defending it.

[Awwwvenger]

The fact that it's the option most chosen contributes to the perception that one side is trying to demonize or shame the other. That might not be the intention, but it's still an undertone.

What if the option was chosen mostly by straight people who will never accept such a reveal/change?

Only the people who voted know how they voted, and why. It seems odd that several people now have implied or outright stated their "knowledge" about who voted for what option.

[Kieran_Frost]

Nah, the last option shouldn't be there. First of all, most straight people will accept LGBT characters; the thread question doesn't really seem to be aimed at the handful of people who are unwilling to accept it, it's aimed at the people who dispute things like Hercules of Deadpool being bisexual. It's also phrased in a very hostile manner. It's not at all unreasonable for people who, say, dislike the outing of Iceman, to read that last option as an attack on them.

Beyond that, the thread's question seemed to be asking straight people what they accept as proof of a character's sexuality, but that last option is pretty clearly intended for people who are passionate proponents of LGBT content. It's not an option that invites discussion. It actually pushes back against discussion, by creating what is, essentially, a straw man.

The fact that it's the option most chosen contributes to the perception that one side is trying to demonize or shame the other. That might not be the intention, but it's still an undertone.

The other options are all fine, even if the "outed by a psychic" one feels weirdly passive-aggressive. But that last one shouldn't have been put there, and we shouldn't be defending it.

Ahhhhhhh; okay I agree that not liking the Iceman outing doesn't mean you dislike all outings (and some may defensively thinking the last one applies to that one objection and it does not); BUT... Herc, Iceman, Prodigy, Storm... how man "I have no problem with it but coincidentally I do not support this" can a poster get away with The last option is only an critique on those who "coincidentally" never seem satisfied with how someone is outed. I still think it's valid. No amount of evidence, hints or previous data is ever enough for some (ESPECIALLY considering you don't need prior "evidence" to come out; that's why we have 50 year old guys married with kids come out). But yes, I think I understand the objection to it better, thank you