What Does It Take For Straight Readers To Accept That A Character Is Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual?

[hawkeyefan]

I think Tiamatty clarified what I was saying well. So thank you for that, Tiamatty.

The last option just doesn't really fit the poll, and seems more like "yes, I'm angry or unhappy about this", wether straight or gay. So I feel a lot of folks selected that option by default, when it would have been more interesting to see what other option(s) they would have chosen. The last option could be selected along with any other option on the poll, so I don't feel it really gives a lot of insight to the question asked.

I mean personally, I pretty much accept what happens. They tell me Iceman's gay, okay. I didn't read the story, but I've heard about it...it sounds like a rushed and gimmicky way to reveal it, but that's fine. I accept it, and I think that it may even open up some interesting story possibilities for both Icemen.

Almost any option on the poll would be acceptable for me, except the writer or creator confirming it after the fact. To me, Pak's confirmation that his intention was for Hercules to be bi is fine, but it doesn't make it canon. It makes it his intention. And the scene in question was not definitive enough to accept as "proof" in and of itself. So for me, they could go in whatever direction they want with Hercules. Ironic a bit I guess.

I think Pak put the possibility out there for Hercules, and now it would depend if another writer decided to pick that up and run with it. It sounds like Abnett wasn't even aware of the scene, and so he probably has no plans along those lines. I accept that. However, if he did decide to go that route, I'd accept that as well.

My issue is either side that "claims" the character as "theirs". At this point, for that character, I think it's open to the interpretation of the writer.

If it was Northstar or Anole or Prodigy that we were talking about, and a writer decided to depict them as straight, then that would be an issue, and I wouldn't blame anyone for complaining about it. I would probably complain myself.

[totalsellout]

But you don't know who voted for that option, so how the vote turned out really can't be put on the LGBT crowd.

I am straight, and I voted that option.

so, you will never accept a character as gay, lesbian or bi?

[totalsellout]

What if the option was chosen mostly by straight people who will never accept such a reveal/change?

Only the people who voted know how they voted, and why. It seems odd that several people now have implied or outright stated their "knowledge" about who voted for what option.

i think you might have missed the page where i asked what straight people chose that last option and someone answered that it was mainly people choosing that option for people. even when you chose that option, i think it's incorrect way to answer this poll unless that is truly how YOU feel about it. i'm reading this poll as asking straight readers what their opinions are, not asking people what their opinions of straight peoples opinions are.but i do agree that some people will never be accepting of it. i just think those people should have to answer that for themselves, and then either defend that opinion or admit it is wrong. i don't think that masterofmagnetism meant anything bad when he started this poll, i just don't like the way it has played out. but i think we may be getting into circular arguments and losing sight of the real issue.

[MECHANO]

Any of the above would work.... The biggest problem that I have is when they retcon completely straight characters as gay. Iceman doesn't work. Always been straight, no hints at being anything else. Storm's bisexuality works... She's always been very sexually open and those early escapades with Yukio gave further evidence of her not being totally straight.

Even though Marvel has said that he is straight, Hercules would be totally believable as being bi... Lots of history.

I guess it is just as the saying goes, "the proof is in the pudding"?

[j9ac9k]

I'm a straight male and I didn't vote in this poll because I didn't find an option that represented my opinion. For me, it's mainly about storytelling. In life I am all for anyone self-designating themselves whatever they want along the spectrum of human sexuality and I don't see why anyone would care what consenting adults do in private. Even though we might know someone who presented straight their whole lives and were either closeted or questioning, etc., that's not the same in this case because we know this is fiction and writers making a conscious decision. My reaction to a character coming out as gay or bi depends on several things:
-- What has been established regarding their sexuality. Some characters, like Spider-Man, we know very, very well. We've been inside their heads an experienced their thoughts - especially regarding his sexual preferences. We've seen him in many relationships with women over the years. There are other characters - even those who might have been around for decades - that we don't know nearly as well. We've never been inside their heads, their personal lives, and may not have ever seen them in a relationship. If it's a case like this, then their sexuality coming to light would be *new* information as opposed to seeming like a retcon or shoe-horned in for diversity agenda. For me, someone like Storm has shown (to me anyway) an affinity towards strong female bonds - though it had been unstated how much of a sexual component was present. Saying she has sexual feelings for women as well as men was not surprising then because it added to what I already knew about her.
-- If the case is the latter, like any kind of effort for inclusion, it needs to be a good story or really add some depth to an established character without throwing out what went before or it will seem like lip-service and *not* good storytelling.
-- If this is the case of a new character (and again, like any effort for inclusion), if it's part of the character from page 1, then that's just who they are. And as long as that's not *all* they are, then that's a two-dimensional character as opposed to a token.

[j9ac9k]

Having stated my own feeling above, regarding those who will not accept a bi or gay character, I offer the following opinion:
-- From what I think I understand about people, it's about relatability. The whole "self"/"other" mentality. It's not the same as "us v. them," or being homophobic, but more "Do I identify with this character?" "Do I see myself as this hero or representative of me in some way when I read his/her stories?" This also applies to race changing, (and never mind Johnny Storm or Wally West - europeans took Jesus, so they already won ) but in those cases, the character has literally been changed. Coming out is a situation where the writers are telling you it's the same exact character, they're just not who you thought they were. And with some people, a modulation in that dial of human sexuality is enough for a them to go from being "self" to "other" because there's still something ingrained where anything other than straight is something outside themselves. Then, when a character is changed, they feel that loss - and since someone else is deciding it, then it feels like someone actively taking something away from them and they resent the loss. (Some people can also get up in arms when you change a character's hair color, but that's something else)

[GoingPostal]

Voted for "Nothing; some people will never accept the character as gay, lesbian or bi" cause that's the way i think it goes.

[Frontier]

If it was Northstar or Anole or Prodigy that we were talking about, and a writer decided to depict them as straight, then that would be an issue, and I wouldn't blame anyone for complaining about it. I would probably complain myself.

Though Prodigy is explicitly Bi, so if he happens to have a new love interest who happens to be female or his relationship with Surge potentially gets touched on again, I don't think there would be as much issue compared to depicting Northstar or Anole as straight.

[Tofali]

I chose the "psychic" even thou it should have been a telepath.

[Awwwvenger]

so, you will never accept a character as gay, lesbian or bi?

No. But the poll doesn't ask me, specifically. The option says "some people" will never accept a gay, etc. character, and I know this to be true. So that's what I answered - that there are people who just won't accept non-straight characters.

[Awwwvenger]

even when you chose that option, i think it's incorrect way to answer this poll unless that is truly how YOU feel about it. i'm reading this poll as asking straight readers what their opinions are, not asking people what their opinions of straight peoples opinions are.

It's possible the thread starter later clarified that they meant it like this, but the language in the first post doesn't support your reading. It doesn't ask what it will take you to accept those characters, it asks what it will take straight people to accept them. Those are different questions, and I answered the one the poll seems to be asking based on its wording.

[Star_Jammer]

What does it take for a gay/bisexual/lesbian reader to accept that a character is gay/bisexual/lesbian?

[Kieran_Frost]

i mean personally, I pretty much accept what happens. They tell me Iceman's gay, okay. I didn't read the story, but I've heard about it...it sounds like a rushed and gimmicky way to reveal it, but that's fine. I accept it, and I think that it may even open up some interesting story possibilities for both Icemen.

*sigh*
Out of curiosity; if you haven't read it; WHY do you insist on labelling it as rushed and gimmicky? GOD... would it kill you to TRY and be supportive (and to be clear: asking someone to not bad mouth a story they haven't read isn't asking for much). Posts like this are part of the problem; there isn't even any support/benefit of the doubt. If every poster who didn't read the issues in regards to LGBT characters just stopping being negative about it, CBR would be a much happier place. It's posts like this...

UGH!!! This makes me so angry!

[hawkeyefan]

*sigh*
Out of curiosity; if you haven't read it; WHY do you insist on labelling it as rushed and gimmicky? GOD... would it kill you to TRY and be supportive (and to be clear: asking someone to not bad mouth a story they haven't read isn't asking for much). Posts like this are part of the problem; there isn't even any support/benefit of the doubt. If every poster who didn't read the issues in regards to LGBT characters just stopping being negative about it, CBR would be a much happier place. It's posts like this...


UGH!!! This makes me so angry!

I'm not insisting on labeling it anything. I said from the descriptions I've heard, it sounds rushed and gimmicky. That's my opinion, which I am certainly entitled to. Just because you may disagree does not mean that my opinion is wrong or part of the problem.

Jean shrugs at him a few times and then he's out. How is having a telepath reveal something like that about another character not a gimmick? How is it not rushed?

But why do you assume that "rushed" and "gimmicky" are automatically bad? Why do you equate that with lack of support? I never said it was a bad story or that they should have done it any differently. All I said is that it sounds a bit rushed and gimmicky. In a way, I totally get why Bendis did it that way. Boom, it's done. It's going to be criticized either way, right? So might as well not draw it all out. Just get to the point and then see what there is to say. As I already stated, I would and do accept this as confirmation of the character's LGBT status. I actually think it's the first interesting thing with the O5 being around, and how a change like that for the young version will impact the adult version.

I'm fine with it. I support the move, regardless of how it was done. That's not part of the problem. All it is is someone who has a different opinion than you.

I would say that trying to stifle differing opinions is part of the problem, but I don't think that's really what you meant to do. I think that you are passionate about the topic, and I think that you're so used to having to defend it that you mistook my criticism of storytelling techniques as a criticism of story content.

[Kieran_Frost]

I'm not insisting on labeling it anything. I said from the descriptions I've heard, it sounds rushed and gimmicky. That's my opinion, which I am certainly entitled to. Just because you may disagree does not mean that my opinion is wrong or part of the problem.

Jean shrugs at him a few times and then he's out. How is having a telepath reveal something like that about another character not a gimmick? How is it not rushed?

But why do you assume that "rushed" and "gimmicky" are automatically bad? Why do you equate that with lack of support? I never said it was a bad story or that they should have done it any differently. All I said is that it sounds a bit rushed and gimmicky. In a way, I totally get why Bendis did it that way. Boom, it's done. It's going to be criticized either way, right? So might as well not draw it all out. Just get to the point and then see what there is to say. As I already stated, I would and do accept this as confirmation of the character's LGBT status. I actually think it's the first interesting thing with the O5 being around, and how a change like that for the young version will impact the adult version.

I'm fine with it. I support the move, regardless of how it was done. That's not part of the problem. All it is is someone who has a different opinion than you.

I would say that trying to stifle differing opinions is part of the problem, but I don't think that's really what you meant to do. I think that you are passionate about the topic, and I think that you're so used to having to defend it that you mistook my criticism of storytelling techniques as a criticism of story content.

If you assume the worst of a story YOU HAVEN'T READ; then you are actively making things harder. Why must you contribute to the negativity that story already received (often from factions in that "offensive" last option in the poll). You are adding yet another negative voice to a topic that doesn't need yet more negativity adding to the pile (and for a story you haven't even read??? How do you think that makes you look?). If you haven't read it, voicing a negative opinion on it helps only those who disliked the story; and offends those who support and loved the story (which is a great many of LGBT posters on this board; though not all, obviously). If you can't understand why (if you haven't read it) you shouldn't contribute to the negativity against the story... then I don't know what to say, frankly.

Do you consider yourself supportive of LGBT issues? And do you think slagging of a major LGBT story you haven't read adds to or decreases from your answer?

P.S. while you are entitled to an opinion on every subject; that doesn't mean your opinion is immune from criticism. And defending your opinion of a story you haven't read is 100% fair game for critique. If you don't like your opinion on stories not challenged, then don't submit them. Not all opinions are held equal; someone who has actually read the story probably has an opinion worth more weight than someone who has not. #truthTalk