View Poll Results: What Does It Take For Straight Readers To Accept That A Character Is Gay, Lesbian Or Bisexual?

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  • Thay have to be shown saying; "I am gay, lebian or bisexual"

    28 30.43%
  • They have to be shown kising another man or another woman

    8 8.70%
  • They have to have years of innuendos and hints that they're gay, lesbian or bisexual

    9 9.78%
  • They have to be shown in bed with another man or another woman

    5 5.43%
  • They have to have a telepath confirm it

    5 5.43%
  • The writer has to confirm it

    8 8.70%
  • The creator of the character has to confirm it

    1 1.09%
  • Nothing; some people will never accept the character as gay, lesbian or bi

    28 30.43%
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  1. #376
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tron View Post
    Silencing? Coming from the guy who has been immediately caling people's opinions invalid and telling them they "don't get it" all thread, I don't think you should be calling out people for "silencing"
    There is a difference between pointing out incorrect statements in a debate and trying to shut down the discussion (i.e. using false data to force a stalemate IS silencing).
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  2. #377
    Veteran Member Darth Kal-el's Avatar
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    But unless you discuss the statement in disagreement the debate won't move forward.

    I am someone who until very recently didn't understand the concept of privilege and now I am but it's still in its infancy with me. So trust me unless people understand it and how it exists we won't ever see eye to eye. Once I started to it changed a lot for me

    I used to find the term kinda offensive as well and turned me off so I understand where he is coming from. Though I do get it now my understanding is not enough that I could explain it well
    Last edited by Darth Kal-el; 08-11-2015 at 07:34 AM.

  3. #378

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Kal-el View Post
    But unless you discuss the statement in disagreement the debate won't move forward.

    I am someone who until very recently didn't understand the concept of privilege and now I am but it's still in its infancy with me. So trust me unless people understand it and how it exists we won't ever see eye to eye. Once I started to it changed a lot for me

    I used to find the term kinda offensive as well and turned me off so I understand where he is coming from. Though I do get it now my understanding is not enough that I could explain it well
    Agreed but it has to be a discussion for example if you told me I am privileged in relation to PDA then we wouldn't be having this disagreement because of the privilege I have of being able to walk down the street without drawing eyes to me, kissing my future girlfriend or even holding her hand I would agree because I understand that two guys or two girls drawn attention unnecessary attention is subjective but I would vote yes but if its something that I can relate to then it comes down to what do I relate to, who am I, what parts make up who I am make up my identity and for me I have already said it.
    Truth is the best policy

  4. #379
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Ohhhhh, okay I've got a great idea; that might help explain this better.

    QUESTION: which currently heterosexual character would a straight reader accept as LGBT?

    And what about that character makes it seem more organic/truthful. Maybe that will help us narrow down what is required and what is lacking in other stories?
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  5. #380

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Ohhhhh, okay I've got a great idea; that might help explain this better.

    QUESTION: which currently heterosexual character would a straight reader accept as LGBT?

    And what about that character makes it seem more organic/truthful. Maybe that will help us narrow down what is required and what is lacking in other stories?
    OK if its just comics I would say Black Widow, Mockingbird, Hercules, Tony Stark, Melinda May and that's off the top of my head, I guess Thor would work as well but from what I understand the Norse don't have the same opinion as the Greeks. One I did think of is Nico, Deadpool, Quake, Leo Fitz, Phill Coulson, Jemma Simmons, Pixie, X-23, Magik, Colossus, Angel is another possibility, Quake. I think that's me for the moment.

    Truthfully its the spy thing and the whole I will get the job done no matter what for Widow, Mockingbird, Melinda May, Phill Coulson, Quake, Leo Fitz and Jemma Simmons, I just got the vibe that they wouldn't object if they had to be with someone of the opposite sex similar to Draken.

    For me Pixie is just so bubbly and adorable I could see her being I love you I don't care about your gender

    X-23 and Magik as far as I know wouldn't care because of their backgrounds I think they would take them so long as they could accept them as who they are.

    Hercules and Tony are quite similar the party boyz and for me I think if they were attracted then they would go for it regardless of gender.

    Thor I think loki said it best a different view on sexual identity

    Deadpool well its deadpool what more can I say

    Nico maybe because I like to ship her and Karolina (I know its a crap reason but I do think they look good together)

    I don't really have a reason for Colossus or Angel except if it happened I wouldn't really care.
    Last edited by VolcanikTiger86; 08-11-2015 at 08:08 AM.
    Truth is the best policy

  6. #381
    Veteran Member Darth Kal-el's Avatar
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    Definitely Stark, Hercules, Emma, , maybe even Banner

  7. #382

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Kal-el View Post
    Definitely Stark, Hercules, Emma, , maybe even Banner
    I didn't think of Emma, I would also have to say her girls the Stepford Cuckoos, there was a tease in the last volume between eva bell(who is another one) and a cuckoo I think its was Celeste maybe.
    Truth is the best policy

  8. #383
    Astonishing Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    I don't really have a reason for Colossus or Angel except if it happened I wouldn't really care.
    If Colossus was gay, I think Kitty might need some sort of therapy. Come to think of it, it would be pretty hilarious.

  9. #384
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    OK if its just comics I would say Black Widow, Mockingbird, Hercules, Tony Stark, Melinda May and that's off the top of my head, I guess Thor would work as well but from what I understand the Norse don't have the same opinion as the Greeks. One I did think of is Nico, Deadpool, Quake, Leo Fitz, Phill Coulson, Jemma Simmons, Pixie, X-23, Magik, Colossus, Angel is another possibility, Quake. I think that's me for the moment.

    Truthfully its the spy thing and the whole I will get the job done no matter what for Widow, Mockingbird, Melinda May, Phill Coulson, Quake, Leo Fitz and Jemma Simmons, I just got the vibe that they wouldn't object if they had to be with someone of the opposite sex similar to Draken.

    For me Pixie is just so bubbly and adorable I could see her being I love you I don't care about your gender

    X-23 and Magik as far as I know wouldn't care because of their backgrounds I think they would take them so long as they could accept them as who they are.

    Hercules and Tony are quite similar the party boyz and for me I think if they were attracted then they would go for it regardless of gender.

    Thor I think loki said it best a different view on sexual identity

    Deadpool well its deadpool what more can I say

    Nico maybe because I like to ship her and Karolina (I know its a crap reason but I do think they look good together)

    I don't really have a reason for Colossus or Angel except if it happened I wouldn't really care.
    Interestingly we did have a bisexual Pixie in the Runaways Secret Wars tie-in. Just a shame that they killed her off to make a point of how evil the school really was under the surface.

  10. #385
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Bobby did confirm it. "I know".

    And this is why I both love and hate comics all in the same moment. In regards to this scene there's a few things that stands out in the panels that you have shown me. Firstly one has to take into effect two considerations about Bobby in general: a) He's a teenager who is still coming to terms with his sexuality. I'm pretty sure that everyone gay or straight did during their teenage years grapple with how they felt about sexuality. Is it love or lust, am I really attracted to X or just horny, etc. So within that there's openings for another writer to refute things or at least change them over if he or she wants. b) the tone of voice here and the choice of words. We can't hear Bobby's voice, because well it's written, so what I may hear as a reader, and what you may hear as a reader are two different things. Because no one can tell how that tone was when BMB wrote the scene. Is it a more affirmative tone of voice? Is he hesitating? Is it a tone where the vocal goes down indicating that he's ashamed, or is it more of a questioning tone that has a period at the end, like a question you don't have answered.

    Second is body language. Jean has her arms crossed against her chest and a hand on her neck rubbing, for body language this means she's questioning what she saw, as she says she thinks, she's not 100% sure and even Bobby, who could be, might find, because again teenager and going through the process of discovering what he likes and doesn't like, that his preferences change as he matures. Then you have bobby, first panel has his hands on his hips, he's mostly relaxed but his body and face say "I'm not buying what you're selling due to the fact that you're not sure either." Thus the tilted head. Second panel we still have the arms on hips, meaning he's open to the idea, but the face says that he's still struggling with this info, and he could be not sure. The pause between words, "Yeah" Beat beat "I know." means more of a dejected tone of voice, as if he's not sure.

    Add to that we're dealing with a kid that is growing up in a period where any form of queerness wasn't exactly openly discussed as it is now, and you have a very complex moment that really should have been with someone who was a more informed Telepath such as, Psyclock, Emma, or I wish Charles. Having it be an adult who has some grasp of their own sexuality could have been a better choice as it allows for a moment of "Okay it's someone that I trust as a narrator and has been proven to mostly been truthful." so the moment would have rung as more genuine. This though, at least for me as a reader, doesn't read as completely true in that I can't trust the two voices before me. Both are teens that are grappling with being in a time period that isn't theirs, both are teenagers that are also going through changes and are unsure of their own powers, and both are teens period. They don't know exactly what they want, and, again, as bobby ages his choices and views change. His assertion of "Maybe I'm bi" could also be as true as Jean saying "I think you're more full gay." (Also the pause there makes me think she's not even sure herself.) Because we won't know for sure until there's more done with the situation and Bobby is older and knows what he feels as a matured adult who can make proper choices.

    This is why I can't fully accept this situation because of who's saying it and how the art shows it and how the words and tone are shown. It's not that I can't accept a gay character, it's that I, as a reader, can't accept how it's presented to me, because the narrator isn't reliable in this case: two teens aren't exactly the best persons to confirm a situation. As I said a follow up with say Betsy or another telepath that we can trust as readers, would be a better thing to have as a means of dealing with this.

  11. #386
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Ohhhhh, okay I've got a great idea; that might help explain this better.

    QUESTION: which currently heterosexual character would a straight reader accept as LGBT?

    And what about that character makes it seem more organic/truthful. Maybe that will help us narrow down what is required and what is lacking in other stories?
    I'll bite, agreeing with VolcanikTiger86 in regard to Black Widow, Nico, Deadpool, Leo Fitz is up in the air for me, while I can see it, I can't...I guess it's partly because of TV show head injury and not sure of the Shield comic yet as I don't have enough, Jemma Simmons I can see, Pixie, X-23, Wonder Man as a possibility, Emma sure, oddly enough Havoc, Gambit, Maximus, Franklin Storm as a possibility...

    Black Widow -Natasha strikes me as someone who isn't exactly one to be labeled. I think she would float, I guess never really saying exactly what she is.

    Nico -I guess because of her personality and the way she treats others. Although if I did see her as Bi or gay I would probably see her as someone that is very exclusive in the relationship, very committed.

    Deadpool -Given his personality, I can see him just enjoying whoever.

    Of Fitz and Simmons -I can see Simmons more naturally leaning this way because she has a more openness about her and seems like the type of person who could fall deeply in love with someone not based on their gender

    Pixie -As was said before she has the "I love you" ability which I think would let her feel for anyone.

    X-23 -Pansexual maybe? I'm not sure I can kind of see it, but she doesn't strike me as the sort that really goes deeply into relationships due to her nature. Very loner like in her qualities.

    Wonder Man -Something about him, I can't exactly explain it, but I can see him wanting to be with a man at some point. Probably the fact that he strikes me as someone that loves life and it's been shown that he doesn't have biased in regards to caring for people.

    Emma -Her nature makes her an easy person to see sleeping with who she finds attractive, but only will commit if it's something that gives her what she desires.

    Havoc -Personality, his nature, given the way he acts in a relationship and how he takes it, I can see him being more easily sleeping with a guy at points.

    Gambit -We know how Remy feels about other people. We know that he's a lover of fine things and fine attractive people. I'm pretty sure if he found someone he was attracted too there wouldn't be much that would stop him from at least making out with them.

    Franklin Storm -Right now he's a kid so, but how he was written in the MC2 and the way he views things, I can see him being gay if the writers went there.

    Maximus -Like some of the others I don't know quiet what makes me think this way. Maybe it's something in the way the body language of the character shows things? Just something about him makes me go "Yeah I could see him working out if they made him gay."

  12. #387

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Ohhhhh, okay I've got a great idea; that might help explain this better.

    QUESTION: which currently heterosexual character would a straight reader accept as LGBT?

    And what about that character makes it seem more organic/truthful. Maybe that will help us narrow down what is required and what is lacking in other stories?
    I'd accept Elektra as bi. She's really only had DD as a lover, and her trysts with Wolverine and Punisher were largely based on the aftermath of shared violence. I can see Elektra as someone who craves acceptance, which she's not ever going to get from DD. I'd introduce someone who is peripherally involved with her line of work, but isn't a killer. A person that makes Elektra feel like she has the capability to be more than an assassin.

  13. #388
    Astonishing Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    Regarding Fitz and Simmons, I remember an episode of AoS where Fitz's imaginary Simmons admires on Mack's physique and Fitz acknowledges that it's actually his own admiration for Mack's body. I honestly thought they were going to take a direction with Fitz where he might be gay or bi, but they didn't do anything with it.

  14. #389

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Medusa View Post
    Regarding Fitz and Simmons, I remember an episode of AoS where Fitz's imaginary Simmons admires on Mack's physique and Fitz acknowledges that it's actually his own admiration for Mack's body. I honestly thought they were going to take a direction with Fitz where he might be gay or bi, but they didn't do anything with it.
    There's nothing wrong with admiring Mack's body. The guy's a sexy slab of beefcake.

    As far as characters who could be LGBT: I'll throw out the curveball of Hank Pym. I don't mean that he is LGBT. I'm quite certain he's straight, and that he'll always be straight. But if a writer did decide to out him as bi, or even gay, I could definitely see it.

    And of course, Storm should be outed as pansexual already. Just get it out there. Everyone knows it, so just make it official. Maybe make Psylocke officially bisexual, too - she and Mystique will be in Uncanny X-Men together, have them fool around with each other. As an added bonus, this would also mean that Mystique would finally engage in same-sex shenanigans on-panel.

  15. #390
    Astonishing Member The_Greatest_Username's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    There's nothing wrong with admiring Mack's body. The guy's a sexy slab of beefcake.
    I haven't watched the show in quite some time, but if my memory serves, it does seem to go beyond that. Mack is ogled by fake-Simmons which is actually just a part of Fitz's subconscious so really it's Fitz ogling Mack. Not to mention he actually starts to value Mack more than he does Simmons for a time.
    Though, gay people don't exist in the MCU, so I doubt they'll follow up on any of this.

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