What Does It Take For Straight Readers To Accept That A Character Is Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual?

[Kurolegacy]

If a characters has been around for decades, then I expect decades worth of innuendos, else I won't accept it ever.

But for new characters, all it takes is a panel.

Pretty much this. Newer characters are easier to accept changes in sexuality because they aren't deeply established so it's merely revealing that bit about their characterization. In a case like with Iceman where the character has been written as nothing but straight for over 50 years, it comes across as more contrived. What makes it even worse is that Bendis chose teen Iceman as a catalyst to making Iceman gay. Had this been his plan from the start, he executed it horribly. The O5 had basically been blank canvases but rather than use this as a means to plant seeds of Iceman's sexuality, he himself wrote him as nothing but straight as shown in instances such as instances where he was the one who initiated trying to pick up girls when he and Scott went out into town and his instant infatuation with Animax, some of the only times any bit of sexuality was expressed. The fact that Bendis had Jeen claim to know from reading his mind, this wasn't even remotely hinted at through the whole run. Outside of that, people try to claim that the signs were there yet none actually want to back up their statement with any of this "proof" they claim exists.

[MasterOfMagnetism]

Also part of the reason why I made this thread is because during this whole Hercules thing I've seen multiple people who claim that the funeral scene does not in any way imply that Northstar and Herc had sex.

I fully understand that even if a character has sex with someone of the same gender it doesn't necessarily mean they're bi or gay, but does anyone want to try explaining how that scene with Snowbird and Northstar at the funeral does anything but strongly imply that Northstar and Herc had sex?

[RobinFan4880]

Sexuality is fluid. Sometimes people like to experiment once or twice. Sometimes people are confused. Sometimes people hide their true preference. Sometimes people back peddle on their declared-preference due to social/peer/family pressure. Sometimes people walk down a path and realize they went the wrong way. Sometimes people get drunk and do things they wouldn't normally do. Sometimes you meet someone and fall in love/lust, even if they aren't want you normally prefer.

I accept what characters do and say as proof of their sexual preference. That preference, however, can change and evolve over time.

[Radix]

I'll accept it like any retcon, if it make sense, is not drastic change, or is forshadowed; it is fine.

[The Whovian]

Well, this is my feelings on it. If a character states from the beginning that he/she is gay, then fine let the writer tell his story. But when a character has been around for many, many years and all of a sudden is written as gay, then no, I don't like it. Here's two examples:

1. Hulking---was stated pretty much from the beginning that he was gay. Fine, that's the what the writer wanted him to be and he is.

2. Iceman---he's been straight for over 50 years, but now one writer comes along and wants to make a splash and controversy to sell some books? No, that is NOT right and it's a slap in the face of all the fans who have enjoyed the character and his stories over the years.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

Well, this is my feelings on it. If a character states from the beginning that he/she is gay, then fine let the writer tell his story. But when a character has been around for many, many years and all of a sudden is written as gay, then no, I don't like it. Here's two examples:

1. Hulking---was stated pretty much from the beginning that he was gay. Fine, that's the what the writer wanted him to be and he is.

2. Iceman---he's been straight for over 50 years, but now one writer comes along and wants to make a splash and controversy to sell some books? No, that is NOT right and it's a slap in the face of all the fans who have enjoyed the character and his stories over the years.

I agree with every single word featured in this post.

[Arfguy]

Me personally? I think it has to be something that has gone on long enough for it to make sense. While I still don't like the Iceman reveal, if Marvel runs with it for a while, I'll accept it.

Biggest problem with the Iceman reveal I have is that his dating life sucks, so therefore: gay. As a straight-male who would doom mankind to extinction if the fate of the world rested on my dating life, I have to say that seems like a cop-out move on Bendis' part. I get it, Marvel is trying to really push diversity. The Iceman reveal feels really disingenuous.

When I started reading comics, Northstar had been gay for almost 2 or 3 years. I came into comics with him being gay. It's not something I dismiss, because that's how it's been. With Marvel and Iceman, they have to make a commitment to Iceman being gay for me to accept it.

[klinton]

It has to be relevant to the character.

I don't see how people embrace Storm or Hercules as 'gay/bi' characters. Thier stories pretty much fall on the side of 'heterosexual'.

Having encounters with the same sex doesn't make someone 'gay' or 'bi'. It merely makes them open minded.

I'm 100% gay, and only persue relationships with men, but I have slept with women and will possibly do so again. I would never call myself 'bisexual' though, because that's just not the case.

All of this furror to try and apply labels to characters that are usually far short of accurate makes no sense to me. But, to each thier own though.

[Ascended]

Sutekh.
Yup.
Sutekh said it all and said it brilliantly.

What Sutekh said.

I dont care about a character's sexuality as much as I care about that character being handled in a relatively consistent manner.

We'll use Iceman as an example here. His "coming out" was pretty badly handled. Its not that I think fifty years worth of stories means Iceman *cant* be gay, as lots of gay people pretend to be straight, or dont even fully realize they're gay, or what have you. If I learned anything in my college sociology class, its that sexuality is a nebulous thing that is nearly impossible to define in clear-cut, easy-to-swallow ways. But there was no careful shift in Bobby's character (that I noticed), nothing that would indicate that his sexuality was going to be adjusted. It was just, all of a sudden, "he's gay! Headlines! Buy my book!" It doesnt bother me that he's gay, what bothers me is that he was made gay in such a ham-fisted, fan-fiction-ish way. If they had written the whole thing with any degree of nuance and build-up, I'd likely be applauding the choice. As it is however, Im just not impressed.

[Dreaded Porcupine]

What Sutekh said.

I dont care about a character's sexuality as much as I care about that character being handled in a relatively consistent manner.

We'll use Iceman as an example here. His "coming out" was pretty badly handled. Its not that I think fifty years worth of stories means Iceman *cant* be gay, as lots of gay people pretend to be straight, or dont even fully realize they're gay, or what have you. If I learned anything in my college sociology class, its that sexuality is a nebulous thing that is nearly impossible to define in clear-cut, easy-to-swallow ways. But there was no careful shift in Bobby's character (that I noticed), nothing that would indicate that his sexuality was going to be adjusted. It was just, all of a sudden, "he's gay! Headlines! Buy my book!" It doesnt bother me that he's gay, what bothers me is that he was made gay in such a ham-fisted, fan-fiction-ish way. If they had written the whole thing with any degree of nuance and build-up, I'd likely be applauding the choice. As it is however, Im just not impressed.

That's BMB for you. He handled Iceman extremely poorly. How many panels was it to change 50 years of history with no explaination whatsoever? If anything his glory grabbing set diversity back. He always wants to be the hero. That's why he irritates so many fans. It's bad enough he trashes anyone elses character build up and continuity with no regards whatsoever. He could try a little character build up himself once in awhile. Bendis never does his homework. That's why I've always disliked him as a writer.

[Kurolegacy]

That's BMB for you. He handled Iceman extremely poorly. How many panels was it to change 50 years of history with no explaination whatsoever? If anything his glory grabbing set diversity back. He always wants to be the hero. That's why he irritates so many fans. It's bad enough he trashes anyone elses character build up and continuity with no regards whatsoever. He could try a little character build up himself once in awhile. Bendis never does his homework. That's why I've always disliked him as a writer.

I definitely agree here. Even among his own writing, the whole thing clearly reeks of him seeking something to make his run memorable considering that up to that point he even wrote teen Bobby as nothing but heterosexual. For it having been something Jeen picked up telepathically, he didn't even bother to so much as subtly show it. Honestly, with that much disregard towards a character, I'm not sure which is worse, that he wrote it or that Marvel approved it.

[DevilBat66]

Well, this is my feelings on it. If a character states from the beginning that he/she is gay, then fine let the writer tell his story. But when a character has been around for many, many years and all of a sudden is written as gay, then no, I don't like it. Here's two examples:

1. Hulking---was stated pretty much from the beginning that he was gay. Fine, that's the what the writer wanted him to be and he is.

2. Iceman---he's been straight for over 50 years, but now one writer comes along and wants to make a splash and controversy to sell some books? No, that is NOT right and it's a slap in the face of all the fans who have enjoyed the character and his stories over the years.

This.

Exactly this.

[DevilBat66]

For me it's less about accepting or rejecting the sexuality itself, than it is about accepting the storytelling going on.

Comic-book Hercules, for instance, is no more the Hercules of myth and legend than comic-book Thor is the Thor of Norse legend. He's been portrayed as a buffoonish Falstaffian figure, ridiculously heterosexual (so much so that the Masters of Evil assault on Avengers Mansion revolved around using prostitutes to seduce Hercules so they could use his access to gain entry), and not particularly interested in ancient Greek concepts like mentoring young men in the eromenos mode. (And it being a running gag around Amadeus Cho, having to fend off the assumption that he was Herc's lover.)

So I'm not going to feel like comic-book Hercules is having anything 'stolen' from him if he is declared to be 100% straight, or kinda/sorta bisexual (since, even if Marvel chose to add that bit of Greek context to the character, it's *not* like what we think of as modern day bisexuality, and would be far from 'inclusive' of any current sexuality, since the eromenos culture didn't practice any sort of mutual bisexuality, and would have thought it wrong for the senior partner in the relationship to submit to the junior partner...). In this specific case, Hercules being portrayed 'realistically' could be far more offensive to real world bisexuals than him just remaining straight.

Generally, I'm not one to care much about gender role stuff, and, in some cases, as with Rictor and Shatterstar, that sort of 'suddenly sexuality' reveal can liven up characters that had mostly been abandoned and forgotten anyway. The rush to 'claim' anyone who loves a same-gendered friend (such as Ororo and Yukio, mentioned upthread) as bisexual, or to 'claim' as bisexual someone who kisses, or even sleeps with, a single person, seems, to me, to be devaluing the concept. Lot's of real world people explore, or have a single exception, or live in the closet long enough to marry and have kids before coming out later in life. Gambit kissed a dude-friend once who had been turned into a woman. That's not 'bisexual,' IMO. America Chavez prefers the ladies, but slept with a dude once. That's not, IMO, 'bisexual,' either.

Sexuality is about attraction, not who you happen to have slept with.

A lot of those poll options are weird, for that sort of reason. In bed with someone? Proves that they slept with X, not that they are *attracted* to X. Assuming that sex proved anything about attraction would be like assuming that people who masturbate are sexually attracted to their hands.

Character said 'I'm gay!' People can be wrong about that sort of thing. People can also lie about that sort of thing. People can even be right and truthful, and later come to the realization that their preferences have changed / expanded / contracted.

And since this is a serial medium, what any given writer says, or even the creator says, can change, as it's the company that owns the character, and they can change their mind at any point and 'un-gay' the character. Look at the issue about Storm and race, intended by her creator to be transracial, but now so firmly 'claimed' as black that people lose their minds when that's brought up. Twenty years from now, Marvel could change their mind again, and everyone could be bisexual, or asexual, or whatever.

I think it's less important to care what other people chose to accept or reject about a given character and just enjoy what we've got (and avoid anything we aren't enjoying). It's doesn't affect my enjoyment of Hercules as a comic book character if he's straight, bisexual or exploring eromenos (which, as I mentioned above, really isn't terrible inclusive of real-world bisexuality, and could even have some uncomfortable associations). It certainly won't affect my enjoyment of the character if every other reader on the planet is nerd-raging to high Olympus that he's being 'shoving a gay agenda down our throats' or 'being straight washed by the CIS gestapo.' There's more sexually diverse characters out there than ever before, so it's kind of cool to see, and I feel like there's less relevance to reading between the lines of Storm and Yukio's friendship looking for romantic subtext, when there are some actual same-sex couples out there, like Wiccan and Hulkling.

This was a good post.

[hawkeyefan]

I would imagine that it's much easier with a new character, or with a character who maybe has been around for a while but not a lot has been done with them.

For long-standing characters, it's probably harder to pull off. Whether or not it's successfully done probably depends on a bunch of factors.

I suppose in that kind of instance, it's comparable to any other retcon, and as likely to be criticized. Using Iceman as an example, he's been around for 50 years and this take on the character is clearly a new development, not a long plan put into place by the 25 different writers that have had a role in the character's portrayal. So, like any retcon, it is met with resistance.

But some retcons are awesome....Bucky coming back as the Winter Soldier immediately comes to mind. It had a lot of different aspects that made it appealing to many fans. First, it was well written. Second, it was a carefully crafted tale that unfolded at a pace that worked. Third, the story had a point beyond itself, and had major impact for the book.

So outing a longstanding character is on par with a major retcon. And if it's lacking the elements that make retcons accepted by fans, then it's going to be criticized like Gwen having Osborn's twins. But if it's done properly, then it'll be looked at like the Winter Soldier.

The big challenge is that most retcons don't involve something that is so personal to so many people....so folks tend to get more passionate about this stuff. And that tends not to help.

[Username taken]

Me personally? I think it has to be something that has gone on long enough for it to make sense. While I still don't like the Iceman reveal, if Marvel runs with it for a while, I'll accept it.

Biggest problem with the Iceman reveal I have is that his dating life sucks, so therefore: gay. As a straight-male who would doom mankind to extinction if the fate of the world rested on my dating life, I have to say that seems like a cop-out move on Bendis' part. I get it, Marvel is trying to really push diversity. The Iceman reveal feels really disingenuous.

When I started reading comics, Northstar had been gay for almost 2 or 3 years. I came into comics with him being gay. It's not something I dismiss, because that's how it's been. With Marvel and Iceman, they have to make a commitment to Iceman being gay for me to accept it.

That's a major problem with the Iceman has always been gay argument.

Just because an individual has dating problems doesn't equate to him/her being gay.That's an overly simplistic way of analyzing things.

If a character is gay or bi, it's the writer's duty to indicate it on panel be it through the character's statements or actions. If anyone still remembers Ultimate Colossus, Mark Millar had been dropping hints about the character's sexuality up to the point that his sexuality was revealed, that really is how to do it.

As readers, we pretty much see these characters inside and out, so for a writer to wake up one day and say said character without any hints up to that point is poor storytelling.