What Does It Take For Straight Readers To Accept That A Character Is Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual?

[Sea Hound]

To be fair to straight readers, when characters have straight relationships, the writers are completely unambiguous about it. They kiss on panel, refer to their relationship, and talk openly about it.

On the other hand, an awful lot of LGBT characterisation is subtexty, or subtle or off panel. I know a lot of that is historical, where legally in the past creators couldn't openly portray same sex relationships so they hinted at them; but that leaves things open to interpretation. (When I was a kid, I thought Mystique and Destiny were just good friends for example, and for a long time there was nothing definitive on panel which said they weren't).
I'm still not 100% sure if Storm and Yukio were lovers. On balance, I think Claremont probably wanted you to infer that they were, but it's never been made 100% clear.

Even now, gay relationships are hinted at, whereas straight ones would just be shown. The Northstar/ Hercules scene is a good example. Pak has said in interviews that he intended it to be read as Northstar and Hercules had had an encounter, but it's written in a way that is ambiguous, and even worse Northstar who is out and proud as a gay man acts ashamed. ( I loved Incredible Hercules as a whole, but that was a crappy scene). Now Alonso comes out and denies it ever happened. The whole thing is a bad message.

So to answer the OPs question, part of what it takes is simple, unambiguous, on panel evidence; like how straight relationships are approached. enough with the hinting and the furtiveness.

[Kurolegacy]

This reminded me of a guy I knew in high school. I was friends with his brother and we all hung out a lot. They were hunters and fishermen and trappers, and while this brother was a huge nerd and computer geek (we got along quite well) he was still into all the "macho" stuff. Years later, he finally came out of the closet and it completely floored all of us. He had never given any "hints" of being gay in any way whatsoever. So yeah, sometimes that's how it goes down. And Im not judging that. It must be hard coming to grips with something like that, especially back in the day when homosexuality wasnt nearly as accepted as it is today.

But with comics, we can see inside their heads. We read their thoughts. And as my old English professor used to say, in literature there is no evidence but what is on the page. So, again just to use Iceman as an example.....we have fifty years where he's straight, and old Iceman is still straight, but out of the blue, with no foreshadowing at all, teen Iceman is suddenly gay (this also annoys me because it feels to me like Bendis is saying sexuality is a choice; like teen Bobby decided to be gay while his older self remains straight. It makes no sense, and we're talking about a time travel story about super powered mutants). He's not a real person, he's a fictional construct. I have no issue with Bobby being made gay despite fifty years of continuity, what I take issue with is Bendis' crap job handling it. Because unlike real life, there aren't a lot of hidden facets to these characters; you can read between the lines a little bit, but basically, what you see is what you get. He could, and should, have handled it with more subtlety and care.

Exactly. This is a medium where, unlike in real life, we can see inside of a character's head and it's the writer's job to convey this to the readers. As with this kind of medium, it's a matter of show don't tell, something that Bendis didn't bother to do through his entire run on All-New X-Men. In fact, he did the complete opposite in having multiple scenes where he wrote Teen Iceman as heterosexual while lacking any hints of homosexuality yet when Jeen "revealed" this, it wasn't any surprise to her and she treated it as though it was a matter of fact point. So beyond even the scope of the reader being able to get into the characters' heads, Bendis also had Jeen, who displays no sense of courtesy with other people's thoughts, as a tool to have revealed it over time. The whole thing just reeks of something that wasn't planned out very far in advance and was just thrown in there at the end which is no way to do things for something that will affect a character's characterization from there on out.

[Username taken]

This reminded me of a guy I knew in high school. I was friends with his brother and we all hung out a lot. They were hunters and fishermen and trappers, and while this brother was a huge nerd and computer geek (we got along quite well) he was still into all the "macho" stuff. Years later, he finally came out of the closet and it completely floored all of us. He had never given any "hints" of being gay in any way whatsoever. So yeah, sometimes that's how it goes down. And Im not judging that. It must be hard coming to grips with something like that, especially back in the day when homosexuality wasnt nearly as accepted as it is today.

But with comics, we can see inside their heads. We read their thoughts. And as my old English professor used to say, in literature there is no evidence but what is on the page. So, again just to use Iceman as an example.....we have fifty years where he's straight, and old Iceman is still straight, but out of the blue, with no foreshadowing at all, teen Iceman is suddenly gay (this also annoys me because it feels to me like Bendis is saying sexuality is a choice; like teen Bobby decided to be gay while his older self remains straight. It makes no sense, and we're talking about a time travel story about super powered mutants). He's not a real person, he's a fictional construct. I have no issue with Bobby being made gay despite fifty years of continuity, what I take issue with is Bendis' crap job handling it. Because unlike real life, there aren't a lot of hidden facets to these characters; you can read between the lines a little bit, but basically, what you see is what you get. He could, and should, have handled it with more subtlety and care.

Exactly.

We are practically seeing these characters from a "god's eye" view.

If a character is gay and still not out, we should be getting some indications of this in their thoughts or actions.

[Awwwvenger]

Why accept it at all. Just wait a bit, and they're retconned into straightness anyway.

[VolcanikTiger86]

Having trouble with deep meaningful relationships is a pretty common trait in most comicbook characters, Creative seem to like to keep the love interest as a revolving door.

Fair point but for me I’m not subtle at all, what you see is what you get so I think that applies to how I see my comic books. However the problem for me is if someone is outed then the next writer should keep them that way for example if they out adult iceman as gay and then the next writer has him in a relationship with a woman me and the rest of the internet are going to be p!$$ed for good reason.

To be fair to straight readers, when characters have straight relationships, the writers are completely unambiguous about it. They kiss on panel, refer to their relationship, and talk openly about it.

On the other hand, an awful lot of LGBT characterisation is subtexty, or subtle or off panel. I know a lot of that is historical, where legally in the past creators couldn't openly portray same sex relationships so they hinted at them; but that leaves things open to interpretation. (When I was a kid, I thought Mystique and Destiny were just good friends for example, and for a long time there was nothing definitive on panel which said they weren't).
I'm still not 100% sure if Storm and Yukio were lovers. On balance, I think Claremont probably wanted you to infer that they were, but it's never been made 100% clear.

Even now, gay relationships are hinted at, whereas straight ones would just be shown. The Northstar/ Hercules scene is a good example. Pak has said in interviews that he intended it to be read as Northstar and Hercules had had an encounter, but it's written in a way that is ambiguous, and even worse Northstar who is out and proud as a gay man acts ashamed. ( I loved Incredible Hercules as a whole, but that was a crappy scene). Now Alonso comes out and denies it ever happened. The whole thing is a bad message.

So to answer the OPs question, part of what it takes is simple, unambiguous, on panel evidence; like how straight relationships are approached. enough with the hinting and the furtiveness.

To be fair though you do have couples that are unambiguous like Teddy/Wiccan and Northstar and ???. Heck Northstar had a wedding issue so there are dropping that approach its just some people would like more to happen yesterday.

Exactly. This is a medium where, unlike in real life, we can see inside of a character's head and it's the writer's job to convey this to the readers. As with this kind of medium, it's a matter of show don't tell, something that Bendis didn't bother to do through his entire run on All-New X-Men. In fact, he did the complete opposite in having multiple scenes where he wrote Teen Iceman as heterosexual while lacking any hints of homosexuality yet when Jeen "revealed" this, it wasn't any surprise to her and she treated it as though it was a matter of fact point. So beyond even the scope of the reader being able to get into the characters' heads, Bendis also had Jeen, who displays no sense of courtesy with other people's thoughts, as a tool to have revealed it over time. The whole thing just reeks of something that wasn't planned out very far in advance and was just thrown in there at the end which is no way to do things for something that will affect a character's characterization from there on out.

Agreed

[dswynne]

To those who read this: if you want comic book readers to accept LGBTQ characters in comics, create a compelling, unique character that does not have a shoe-horned backstory, used for marketing purposes...and this is coming from a fan of Ann Rice's Vampire Chronicles. Examples of a "good" LGBTQ characters is Hulkling and Wiccan. Examples of "bad" LGBTQ is Colossus, Julie Power/Lightspeed and Iceman. Oh, and one more thing: you will have to accept the fact that not everyone who dislike changing a character's sexual orientation is an automatic homophobe. IMO, people who make such charges are too emotionally-invested in the issue, and would have force the issue, rather than discuss the issue. And when no consensus is met, the charge of homophobia is made, thus shutting down the debate. And that is sad.

Still, if Marvel Comics feel that a more diverse character roster is needed to be more reflective of the company's audience, so be it. We can only hope that the company's action will be a positive.

[Mike82]

Well, you never know what you think you know what you think you know.

You obviously need a telepath to confirm it. His/her mother must be present as well.

[Kieran_Frost]

To those who read this: if you want comic book readers to accept LGBTQ characters in comics, create a compelling, unique character that does not have a shoe-horned backstory, used for marketing purposes...and this is coming from a fan of Ann Rice's Vampire Chronicles. Examples of a "good" LGBTQ characters is Hulkling and Wiccan. Examples of "bad" LGBTQ is Colossus, Julie Power/Lightspeed and Iceman. Oh, and one more thing: you will have to accept the fact that not everyone who dislike changing a character's sexual orientation is an automatic homophobe. IMO, people who make such charges are too emotionally-invested in the issue, and would have force the issue, rather than discuss the issue. And when no consensus is met, the charge of homophobia is made, thus shutting down the debate. And that is sad.

Julie Powers is an example of "bad LGBT"? REALLY??? You need to remember not everyone who is LGBT realises in a timely fashion by the time they are 12...

[Kieran_Frost]

Exactly. This is a medium where, unlike in real life, we can see inside of a character's head and it's the writer's job to convey this to the readers. As with this kind of medium, it's a matter of show don't tell, something that Bendis didn't bother to do through his entire run on All-New X-Men. In fact, he did the complete opposite in having multiple scenes where he wrote Teen Iceman as heterosexual while lacking any hints of homosexuality yet when Jeen "revealed" this, it wasn't any surprise to her and she treated it as though it was a matter of fact point. So beyond even the scope of the reader being able to get into the characters' heads, Bendis also had Jeen, who displays no sense of courtesy with other people's thoughts, as a tool to have revealed it over time. The whole thing just reeks of something that wasn't planned out very far in advance and was just thrown in there at the end which is no way to do things for something that will affect a character's characterization from there on out.

The "we see in their heads" defence is utterly pointless... non-LGBT people probably don't realise this: not all LGBT people know they are LGBT. Even if you see in their heads, that doesn't mean they know and therefore are thinking contradictory things. Some people come out much later in life, and were not "in denial" or suppressing it; they just didn't realise. They assumed what they felt was real and genuine; only to learn later there is a whole other level that only materialised when they realised they were LGBT. Seeing in someone's head doesn't mean they can't be LGBT. That is just ignorance of the complexity of sexuality.

[Kurolegacy]

The "we see in their heads" defence is utterly pointless... non-LGBT people probably don't realise this: not all LGBT people know they are LGBT. Even if you see in their heads, that doesn't mean they know and therefore are thinking contradictory things. Some people come out much later in life, and were not "in denial" or suppressing it; they just didn't realise. They assumed what they felt was real and genuine; only to learn later there is a whole other level that only materialised when they realised they were LGBT. Seeing in someone's head doesn't mean they can't be LGBT. That is just ignorance of the complexity of sexuality.

Except in the issue that Jeen revealed teen Bobby to be gay, he himself admitted that he knew when she brought up that he wasn't bi but full gay. So teen Bobby isn't a case of not realizing. He already knew.

[Kieran_Frost]

Except in the issue that Jeen revealed teen Bobby to be gay, he himself admitted that he knew when she brought up that he wasn't bi but full gay. So teen Bobby isn't a case of not realizing. He already knew.

Oh so NOW you agree TeenBobby knew he was gay not bi; I thought Jean "forced that" on him?

[The Fury]

The "we see in their heads" defence is utterly pointless... non-LGBT people probably don't realise this: not all LGBT people know they are LGBT. Even if you see in their heads, that doesn't mean they know and therefore are thinking contradictory things. Some people come out much later in life, and were not "in denial" or suppressing it; they just didn't realise. They assumed what they felt was real and genuine; only to learn later there is a whole other level that only materialised when they realised they were LGBT. Seeing in someone's head doesn't mean they can't be LGBT. That is just ignorance of the complexity of sexuality.

His argument isn't about literal seeing in to their heads, it's about narrative perspective. We as comic readers are like ever watching gods to these characters, we see their fights, we see their turmoil, we see them when they are alone showing their real feelings on situations, hiding it from others. We see small facial expressions when other characters backs are turned. It's not just about what they happen to think based on sexuality, it's about all aspects of their lives/existences. You wonder why many don't like the way certain characters were outed, and it's because it narratively doesn't make sense, it has little to do with factual take on real life scenarios of coming out.

[Kieran_Frost]

His argument isn't about literal seeing in to their heads, it's about narrative perspective. We as comic readers are like ever watching gods to these characters, we see their fights, we see their turmoil, we see them when they are alone showing their real feelings on situations, hiding it from others. We see small facial expressions when other characters backs are turned. It's not just about what they happen to think based on sexuality, it's about all aspects of their lives/existences. You wonder why many don't like the way certain characters were outed, and it's because it narratively doesn't make sense, it has little to do with factual take on real life scenarios of coming out.

"Doesn't make sense..." to whom? All I see is some posters who don't know what it's like to come out say "it doesn't make sense". My main thought: how would they know? Iceman's coming out was praised for the realism by people who actually know how it can happen and what it feels like. Prodigy, Benjamin, Victoria Hand; all praised. All relatable... to those who can relate to such things, of course.

"Non-LGBT" people can come out at 50, having had kids and believing they were not LGBT their whole lives. Many suppress, or live in denial. Many know from very young. There is no one rule. Personally, I've yet to see a main "coming out" issue that felt false (to me).

[The Fury]

"Doesn't make sense..." to whom? All I see is some posters who don't know what it's like to come out say "it doesn't make sense". My main thought: how would they know? Iceman's coming out was praised for the realism by people who actually know how it can happen and what it feels like. Prodigy, Benjamin, Victoria Hand; all praised. All relatable... to those who can relate to such things, of course.

"Non-LGBT" people can come out at 50, having had kids and believing they were not LGBT their whole lives. Many suppress, or live in denial. Many know from very young. There is no one rule. Personally, I've yet to see a main "coming out" issue that felt false (to me).

Narratively. This isn't real, it's a story. We want good stories.

[Greg]

I actually have a manager who is gay and I discussed sexuality with him. He was married for about 20 years and has two kids. I asked him if he felt he was actually bisexual and he said no, but it wasn't until he and his wife divorced that he started to wonder if he was gay and started exploring it. Before that, he never felt like he had a thought about his sexuality or questioned it due to so many factors in his life. There's so many accounts of people explaining that they didn't realize their feelings for the same sex until WAY later in their lives. It happens.

Also, what made Ultimate Colossus' story bad? At the time of release, these issues coming out spoke so much to me than anything else at the time.