Will we ever see Carlie Cooper again? Anyone feel bad for her?

[Darthfury78]

Ok, I take back what I said.

I hope Carlie does come back as Monster . . . and kills She-Hulk and Tigra.

But why? Carlie is a lot like Jennifer Walters and Greer Grant in their normal human guise.

[Phantom Roxas]

I will only say that writers come and go and pitch ideas to Marvel all the time. What might not make sense to you or anyone else might get the green light by Marvel if a staff member can convince them otherwise like anyone else. I only talked about the characters. Not the story idea. Never say never because what Slott(or any other ASM writer) will never do, someone else might take a shot at it. What gets ignored by one writer might be picked up by another.

Also, I predict that Slott will be the sole ASM writer for another 10 years at best. He has PLENTY of ASM stories to tell. As long as sales are strong as they are, he gets to stay on the book for however long as he wants to. But there are Spider-Man mini series that other writers can use to tell their Spider-Man adventures. Thus, I feel that we might see Spider-Man and The Black Widow, as well as Spider-Man and Tigra in the not too distant future.

I don't think has Slott's sales are enough to keep in the book. If Marvel wants another writer, they can get another writer, and last I heard, Slott had only planned up through 2017 at the most. Yes, writers can pitch ideas to Marvel, but do you think people will pitch those specific ideas? What reason would they have to do so? What stories could they pitch? Yes, you keep talking about the characters, but you need an actual story to use those characters with. You said that story ideas would be opened up once you have the relationships in place, but how would they work?

But it's funny how you say "never say never", yet when I've brought up how Betty Brant would sooner restart her relationship with Flash than be with Peter again, you said that Betty wouldn't get back with Flash, so that is a case of you saying "never" to something. So Betty X Flash is no longer possible, but we must always be prepared for Peter to date whichever woman you feel compelled to bring up any given day?

With regards to Jennifer Walters being Peter's Legal Advisor, Jennifer's human persona is quite distinctive from the She-Hulk persona as she's good with Financial Law and Intellectual Property Law, which would bore The Sensational She-Hulk to death because it doesn't involve criminal cases which holds her interest.

Where has it been confirmed that she specializes in Financial and Intellectual Property Laws? Because it sounds like you're only suggesting those specifically to have an excuse to involve her in the Parker Industries stories, rather than building off of something that's actually there.

This is the side to Jennifer that could fit in well in Peter's social circles because she could help him out in this regard at a very fair billing rate. In exchange, Peter helps her out on her adventures as The She-Hulk. Afterall, Jennifer's human persona is very good with reading financial statements and intellectual patents.

Why would she have a "very fair" billing rate? Why would she give Peter a discount? How are court cases ideal for the specific social life of Peter Parker? And, again, where has Jennifer's expertise in those readings been shown to the point of making her an ideal fit for Peter's "world"?

But why? Carlie is a lot like Jennifer Walters and Greer Grant in their normal human guise.

Yet for some reason, despite Carlie being an actual Spider-Man character who possesses the qualities you want in a love interest for Spider-Man, you have been trying to replace her with Jennifer and Greer. At least with Carlie, you don't have to tear her character in half to get what you want. If you have to remove "the" She-Hulk and "the" Tigra from the narrative, you're not being as generous as you pretend to be. You're purposefully throwing away the potential in their characters just because Jennifer dared to be green and Greer is a monster for turning into a cat person.

The only Spider-Man characters you ever talk about are Peter, Quentin, Felicia, and Betty. Everything else relies on taking nearly every female character in Marvel except Spider-Man characters who aren't Felicia or Betty. Carlie is the one whose role in the book this is meant for. Jennifer and Greer are good characters on their own. I think we're going to see Carlie again before we see Peter have a threesome with Jennifer and Greer. Again, like you said, Matt shouldn't be used because you thought he was in California, so it's hypocritical for you to be advocating for Greer anyway. Then again, if Matt can be moved back to New York, then so too can Greer. However, keeping with these equivalents, if Jennifer can have her position as a lawyer conform to Peter's needs, why can't Matt's needs be twisted? You're changing Jennifer and Greer to accommodate Peter's story, so the same could be done with characters like Matt or Carlie. So, why does it have to be Jennifer and Greer specifically, but Matt and Carlie should be considered off-limits? If you think that Slott can have ten years on the book, couldn't Carlie come back within that decade?

Matt can cover the necessities of the lawyer role, and Carlie can be the police officer that works alongside Peter. It's not that they're interchangeable like you have women be for Peter. It's just that Peter's connection to Matt is closer to his connection Jennifer, and Carlie was created for the Spider-Man series while Greer was not.

[Darthfury78]

I don't think has Slott's sales are enough to keep in the book. If Marvel wants another writer, they can get another writer, and last I heard, Slott had only planned up through 2017 at the most. Yes, writers can pitch ideas to Marvel, but do you think people will pitch those specific ideas? What reason would they have to do so? What stories could they pitch? Yes, you keep talking about the characters, but you need an actual story to use those characters with. You said that story ideas would be opened up once you have the relationships in place, but how would they work?

But it's funny how you say "never say never", yet when I've brought up how Betty Brant would sooner restart her relationship with Flash than be with Peter again, you said that Betty wouldn't get back with Flash, so that is a case of you saying "never" to something. So Betty X Flash is no longer possible, but we must always be prepared for Peter to date whichever woman you feel compelled to bring up any given day?



Where has it been confirmed that she specializes in Financial and Intellectual Property Laws? Because it sounds like you're only suggesting those specifically to have an excuse to involve her in the Parker Industries stories, rather than building off of something that's actually there.



Why would she have a "very fair" billing rate? Why would she give Peter a discount? How are court cases ideal for the specific social life of Peter Parker? And, again, where has Jennifer's expertise in those readings been shown to the point of making her an ideal fit for Peter's "world"?



Yet for some reason, despite Carlie being an actual Spider-Man character who possesses the qualities you want in a love interest for Spider-Man, you have been trying to replace her with Jennifer and Greer. At least with Carlie, you don't have to tear her character in half to get what you want. If you have to remove "the" She-Hulk and "the" Tigra from the narrative, you're not being as generous as you pretend to be. You're purposefully throwing away the potential in their characters just because Jennifer dared to be green and Greer is a monster for turning into a cat person.

The only Spider-Man characters you ever talk about are Peter, Quentin, Felicia, and Betty. Everything else relies on taking nearly every female character in Marvel except Spider-Man characters who aren't Felicia or Betty. Carlie is the one whose role in the book this is meant for. Jennifer and Greer are good characters on their own. I think we're going to see Carlie again before we see Peter have a threesome with Jennifer and Greer. Again, like you said, Matt shouldn't be used because you thought he was in California, so it's hypocritical for you to be advocating for Greer anyway. Then again, if Matt can be moved back to New York, then so too can Greer. However, keeping with these equivalents, if Jennifer can have her position as a lawyer conform to Peter's needs, why can't Matt's needs be twisted? You're changing Jennifer and Greer to accommodate Peter's story, so the same could be done with characters like Matt or Carlie. So, why does it have to be Jennifer and Greer specifically, but Matt and Carlie should be considered off-limits? If you think that Slott can have ten years on the book, couldn't Carlie come back within that decade?

Matt can cover the necessities of the lawyer role, and Carlie can be the police officer that works alongside Peter. It's not that they're interchangeable like you have women be for Peter. It's just that Peter's connection to Matt is closer to his connection Jennifer, and Carlie was created for the Spider-Man series while Greer was not.

Things should not be limited to just Spider-man created characters alone. And Greer is basically in limbo outside of the Avengers. She could do well in Spider-Man's world as well as Jennifer Walters. Sometimes, it's good to mix things up because that is what Marvel is all about. Putting characters into places that they have never been before to form new storyline pathways. Otherwise, you will get the same boring stories again and again. And Greer doesn't get much screen time as it is. She doesn't have a ongoing series. She works best as a character who could fit into the pages of Spider-Man world in the same manner as Julia Carpenter and Jessica Drew, which neither one was ever a Spider-Man created character to begin with.

But realistically, I do not expect any writer to consider anything I've talked about. You are right. I am wrong.

[Dan Slott]

...last I heard, Slott had only planned up through 2017 at the most.

To be fair, from what I've seen you say online, what you've heard and what you believe doesn't seem to sync up well with actual facts-- or even with what's been printed in the pages of the book. So there's that.

[Phantom Roxas]

To be fair, from what I've seen you say online, what you've heard and what you believe doesn't seem to sync up well with actual facts-- or even with what's been printed in the pages of the book. So there's that.

Is there a proper name for your Stunner two-parter? While it's in the Necessary Evil trade, that title refers to the 2099 story, so I don't know if there's a specific title for the Stunner story, which is a phrase I'd rather not be using to refer to it because it feels like there's something better to call it. Regardless, Superior Spider-Man #20-21 were intended to set up stories, and I think that it provided enough material for you to work with. Not only that, but Goblin Nation, Spider-Verse, and other stories that seemingly tied up loose ends could always segue into future stories. While I heard that you planned up through 2017, that was long enough ago that plans could have changed. Something like you have a general scope of what will happen and when, potentially spanning until 2025 to go off of Darthfury's estimate, but the finer details are a mix of what is definitely going to happen in issues that haven't been released yet, what they will lead up, and some other elements that, while in consideration, aren't finalized yet. So, since Stunner, Goblin Nation, and Spider-Verse could all have some influence on later stories (Though it's possible that they could not, or just not in the way I personally expect), it's just as possible that the stories you worked out within that two-year plan could help your run continue further.

For the purposes of this thread, that does mean that, as you have more material for stories, that opens up more room to include Carlie. Whether or not that ends up being the case is another matter entirely, but I am trying to work with the subject here.

[Mister Mets]

I don't think has Slott's sales are enough to keep in the book. If Marvel wants another writer, they can get another writer, and last I heard, Slott had only planned up through 2017 at the most. Yes, writers can pitch ideas to Marvel, but do you think people will pitch those specific ideas? What reason would they have to do so? What stories could they pitch? Yes, you keep talking about the characters, but you need an actual story to use those characters with. You said that story ideas would be opened up once you have the relationships in place, but how would they work?

But it's funny how you say "never say never", yet when I've brought up how Betty Brant would sooner restart her relationship with Flash than be with Peter again, you said that Betty wouldn't get back with Flash, so that is a case of you saying "never" to something. So Betty X Flash is no longer possible, but we must always be prepared for Peter to date whichever woman you feel compelled to bring up any given day?



Where has it been confirmed that she specializes in Financial and Intellectual Property Laws? Because it sounds like you're only suggesting those specifically to have an excuse to involve her in the Parker Industries stories, rather than building off of something that's actually there.



Why would she have a "very fair" billing rate? Why would she give Peter a discount? How are court cases ideal for the specific social life of Peter Parker? And, again, where has Jennifer's expertise in those readings been shown to the point of making her an ideal fit for Peter's "world"?



Yet for some reason, despite Carlie being an actual Spider-Man character who possesses the qualities you want in a love interest for Spider-Man, you have been trying to replace her with Jennifer and Greer. At least with Carlie, you don't have to tear her character in half to get what you want. If you have to remove "the" She-Hulk and "the" Tigra from the narrative, you're not being as generous as you pretend to be. You're purposefully throwing away the potential in their characters just because Jennifer dared to be green and Greer is a monster for turning into a cat person.

The only Spider-Man characters you ever talk about are Peter, Quentin, Felicia, and Betty. Everything else relies on taking nearly every female character in Marvel except Spider-Man characters who aren't Felicia or Betty. Carlie is the one whose role in the book this is meant for. Jennifer and Greer are good characters on their own. I think we're going to see Carlie again before we see Peter have a threesome with Jennifer and Greer. Again, like you said, Matt shouldn't be used because you thought he was in California, so it's hypocritical for you to be advocating for Greer anyway. Then again, if Matt can be moved back to New York, then so too can Greer. However, keeping with these equivalents, if Jennifer can have her position as a lawyer conform to Peter's needs, why can't Matt's needs be twisted? You're changing Jennifer and Greer to accommodate Peter's story, so the same could be done with characters like Matt or Carlie. So, why does it have to be Jennifer and Greer specifically, but Matt and Carlie should be considered off-limits? If you think that Slott can have ten years on the book, couldn't Carlie come back within that decade?

Matt can cover the necessities of the lawyer role, and Carlie can be the police officer that works alongside Peter. It's not that they're interchangeable like you have women be for Peter. It's just that Peter's connection to Matt is closer to his connection Jennifer, and Carlie was created for the Spider-Man series while Greer was not.

Sales of the title seem strong enough that Slott's not leaving unless he wants to.

There is very little precedent for Marvel booting Slott. Sales are good, and I've yet to see any suggestion of major disagreements between Slott and editorial. He does seem willing to incorporate their suggestions (as seen with Spider Verse going from a Superior Spider-Man arc to Amazing Spider-Man.)

[Phantom Roxas]

How is there little precedence? When has the strength of sales been enough to prevent a writer from a leaving a title, particularly if Marvel wanted to bring someone else on? Lowe said something along the lines of how he could have gotten rid of Slott if he wanted to, but chose not to because he enjoys Slott's stories. So the sales weren't protecting Slott, but their appeal to Lowe.

I wasn't at all suggesting that Slott and editorial would have disagreements. I only said that if Marvel wanted another writer, they would pick one. It wouldn't be through any fault on Slott's part, and major writers like Brian Bendis, Mark Waid, and Rick Remender have all left their respective books, with Bendis leaving Avengers for X-Men, which he's now leaving as well, Waid leaving Daredevil, and Remender leaving Captain America and Uncanny Avengers, which were supposed to be connected to the same mega-arc that traces back to at least Uncanny X-Force and Secret Avengers. Yes, Slott could have enough material to keep his run going, but he could also leave the book before he could make full use of that material.

However, what does any of this have to do with the purpose of this thread? I said that Carlie could return to the book while Slott is the writer. Is your response related to that particular comment?

[Mister Mets]

How is there little precedence? When has the strength of sales been enough to prevent a writer from a leaving a title, particularly if Marvel wanted to bring someone else on? Lowe said something along the lines of how he could have gotten rid of Slott if he wanted to, but chose not to because he enjoys Slott's stories. So the sales weren't protecting Slott, but their appeal to Lowe.

I wasn't at all suggesting that Slott and editorial would have disagreements. I only said that if Marvel wanted another writer, they would pick one. It wouldn't be through any fault on Slott's part, and major writers like Brian Bendis, Mark Waid, and Rick Remender have all left their respective books, with Bendis leaving Avengers for X-Men, which he's now leaving as well, Waid leaving Daredevil, and Remender leaving Captain America and Uncanny Avengers, which were supposed to be connected to the same mega-arc that traces back to at least Uncanny X-Force and Secret Avengers. Yes, Slott could have enough material to keep his run going, but he could also leave the book before he could make full use of that material.

However, what does any of this have to do with the purpose of this thread? I said that Carlie could return to the book while Slott is the writer. Is your response related to that particular comment?

The majority of the writers you mention didn't leave because Marvel wanted them gone. Mark Waid decided he was at the end of his Daredevil run, the longest on the character's history. Brian Michael Bendis decided after 6+ years of working on at least two Avengers books each month that he was going to work on different series. There's no hint of an indication that either was forced out.

Rick Remender says he's focusing on creator-owned work after several years of being at Marvel.

The only time top writers have left bestselling titles when it isn't of their own accord is a disagreement with editorial. Chris Claremont left the X-Men because he wanted to take the series in new directions, while Jim Lee and Marvel wanted to keep familiar elements. Peter David left the Hulk because Marvel wanted to bring back the savage Hulk and that wasn't something he wanted to write.

[Phantom Roxas]

If Claremont and David were driven off their books after having such lengthy runs, then it could happen with anyone else. But what does that have to do with Carlie?

[Mister Mets]

If Claremont and David were driven off their books after having such lengthy runs, then it could happen with anyone else. But what does that have to do with Carlie?

You made a point on this thread that I disputed. It's how a lot of posts on message boards occur.

As for PAD and Claremont, I've noted how they were in a different position prior to their departures. They had conflicts with editors on the direction of the book. That does not appear to be the case with Slott, whose sales would otherwise make him difficult to fire.

[Phantom Roxas]

You made a point on this thread that I disputed. It's how a lot of posts on message boards occur.

Yes, but this is getting too far removed from the subject of Carlie, and seems more like a cause for a thread drift.

As for PAD and Claremont, I've noted how they were in a different position prior to their departures. They had conflicts with editors on the direction of the book. That does not appear to be the case with Slott, whose sales would otherwise make him difficult to fire.

Again, you're the one suggesting that editorial conflicts would have to happen. Are his sales at the point that it would be the only way to fire him? How do sales offer such protection that make it difficult to fire him? Why would it even be a case of "firing"? I said that they could just want a new writer. To avoid disputes with Slott, he could just have another book, or be allowed to continue his run with some sort of successor, similar to how Kieron Gillen continued the story of Journey Into Mystery over in Young Avengers, while the book Journey Into Mystery itself continued.

[Mister Mets]

Yes, but this is getting too far removed from the subject of Carlie, and seems more like a cause for a thread drift.



Again, you're the one suggesting that editorial conflicts would have to happen. Are his sales at the point that it would be the only way to fire him? How do sales offer such protection that make it difficult to fire him? Why would it even be a case of "firing"? I said that they could just want a new writer. To avoid disputes with Slott, he could just have another book, or be allowed to continue his run with some sort of successor, similar to how Kieron Gillen continued the story of Journey Into Mystery over in Young Avengers, while the book Journey Into Mystery itself continued.

If there are enough posts/ different responders it could be a thread drift.

I think it's still important to point out that there isn't precedent for Marvel kicking out Slott. It's not how the industry operates. Writers on best-selling books tend to leave when they want to, with the main exception being an editorial dispute.

[Phantom Roxas]

If there are enough posts/ different responders it could be a thread drift.

Fair point. Then we should probably try to wrap up this diversion so this topic can back to what it was meant for.

I think it's still important to point out that there isn't precedent for Marvel kicking out Slott. It's not how the industry operates. Writers on best-selling books tend to leave when they want to, with the main exception being an editorial dispute.

Your logic for this is if a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound? Just because we haven't heard about any editorial disputes doesn't mean they aren't any. Now, that isn't to say I want to hear about them, because it's perfectly understandable that Marvel wouldn't let those slip. But it doesn't mean they're not happening. So there could be precedent, but you're equating us not knowing about them with them not existing.

But again, I never mentioned editorial dispute until you brought it up. Nick Lowe said the following in this interview.

Well, we just trust our creators, plain and simple. Talking about "Renew Your Vows" specifically, Dan Slott has now written more issues of "Spider-Man" than anybody, and there's a reason for that. I would have had a perfect opportunity, if I wanted to, when I came in on the Spider-Man books to take Dan off of "Amazing Spider-Man" and put somebody else on. That can often happen when there's editorial changes. But not only was I a big fan of Dan's Spider-Man, everyone in the world seems to be, too -- it's such a great book and he has such a keen vision for this character and for pushing Peter in new directions. I'm trusting in Dan and the incredible art of Adam to bring our readers along. The same goes for all these books. All an editor can do is put the best creators on the best characters and hope the story and fans do the rest. I couldn't be prouder of my creators on "Spider-Gwen" and "Spider-Woman" and "Silk" and the same goes for "Spider-Verse" which is coming up as part of "Secret Wars" and for some other stuff we have on the horizon. I hope people give these books a chance, and I think they'll be really happy with them.

Is the "everyone in the world seems to be" supposed to be an example of the sales? Because even if it is, it sounds like Lowe could have done it of his own volition because that is how the industry operates.

[boots]

Your logic for this is if a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound? Just because we haven't heard about any editorial disputes doesn't mean they aren't any. Now, that isn't to say I want to hear about them, because it's perfectly understandable that Marvel wouldn't let those slip. But it doesn't mean they're not happening. So there could be precedent, but you're equating us not knowing about them with them not existing.

by that reasoning there might be a precedent for leprechaun laying siege to marvel offices and demanding a change in creative teams before wiping everyone’s memories- because we never hear of it.

or maybe there were love triangles between the creative team that we never knew of.

or it was because of fights over the marvel cookie tin.

one line of thought is based on precedence and established facts the other is conjecture based on possibility.

it’s always going to be harder to argue (and prove) the latter.



(also "tree falling-make a sound" is a metaphysical/philosophical question)

[cyberhubbs]

To be fair, Ramos and Slott were made for each other. So there's bound to be some jealousy when a third potential soulmate is added to the mix.