Ultimate End #4 - Discussion and Spoilers

[jackolover]

Called it, Bombshell was in no danger. It was just a buy the next issue stunt since she's one of the few characters left that most people love. Hoping she'll be a supporting character in ANAD Spider-Man along with the other Ultimates Cloak and Dagger, Ganke, and Jessica Drew.

As to this issue though, it was pure garbage.

Ultimate Punisher took out 616 Punisher, and he can't shoot straight to take out Bombshell? He isn't going to hit any of the heroes in action then.

[Grayson]

Yea but problem there is Bendis said Ultimate Peter would be appearing in this and thus far it seems to have been a lie.

Yeah but the problem is even if Ultimate Peter was in this story, it wouldn't be our Peter. It wouldn't be the UU Peter in question and we'd never get resolution. Just like the Ultimate Captain America here isn't the one that flew a plane to Galactus or that Ultimate Thor in Thors isn't our Thor either.

[SpeedofLife]

That second Wolverine is without a doubt Old Man Logan.

Got to love one of the All-New Ultimate asking why Ultimate Punisher is alive - reminds me of Loeb and his spot dialogue in Ultimates 3 (Pyro: "I was one of the X-Men for a bit!!!")

[Kurolegacy]

Yeah but the problem is even if Ultimate Peter was in this story, it wouldn't be our Peter. It wouldn't be the UU Peter in question and we'd never get resolution. Just like the Ultimate Captain America here isn't the one that flew a plane to Galactus or that Ultimate Thor in Thors isn't our Thor either.

That's actually a bit much to assume before the story is over. The only one's we can basically confirm are fakes are Peter and Cyclops. All the others were in Manhattan when the incursion happened and it was said that Doom saved who he could. So while some may be recreations, many may be the real deal.

[neonrideraryeh]

I usually give Bendis the benefit of the doubt and defend his work, but with this series I can't. Ultimate End has been really really terrible. Everything about the story has been a total mess. So much wrong with it, though I'm not going to take the time to list it all. A couple of them though. One thing I'll mention however is Ult Punisher. After somehow being able to defeat a version of Marvel Punisher, he continues to be overly hyped up for some reason. Also the epic brawl seems to have pretty much zero set-up. The Tonys decided to walk away from each other and then suddenly everybody is fighting. It comes out of nowhere. Most stories actually put some kind of effort into creating massive hero vs hero battles but this is abysmal.

[Ursalink]

Boy, I can't wait for final issue!! I really hope Miles will be able to put some sense in all the heroes before they kill each other. My opinion?, most of the characters will be merged with their counterparts; and the exclusive material from Ultimate (Bombshell, Miles, Ult Spider-Woman and others) will be adapted to the All-New Marvel. I suppose this Miles is the one who survived alongside the Cabal in their Raft. I hope "Secret Wars #5" won't take too much to appear, because we were promised to show where all the survivors (both the Cabal and the good guys) were sent by Doc Strange.

[shgs]

I get the complaints about pacing (the leap from Tony and Tony arguing to the big super hero dust up is huge), and the two sides just joining together based on which domain they are from is silly, and if you're not a fan of Bendis' dialogue there's obviously nothing to win you over here, but the plot really isn't as confusing as people are making out.

Clearly Doom is letting the heroes tear themselves apart as punishment for thwarting his plans so often in those halcyon pre-Battleworld days.

Valeria: 'Why have you created something that is unlivable and challenging to those inside it of it?'
Doom: [pregnant pause]
Valeria: 'Do you want the Thor's to put a stop to it?'
Doom: 'No.'

Note it is implied that Doom created the dimensional rift.

The rest of the plot is chaotic on purpose, because no one knows what to do and tempers are boiling over. The portal makes their lives misery but they can't do anything about it without bringing down the wrath of Doom: they're stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place. The Tonies find a way to possibly fix the portal but disagree on whether to tell Doom they've found a solution (and risk calling down his wrath for disobeying his order to leave it alone) or do it without telling him (and risk calling down even more wrath if they're caught). The Punisher blames the heroes and their wacky shenanigans for everything that's going wrong (he's hardly the first) and has decided to kill them all to rid the world of their menace.

[Plawsky]

but the plot really isn't as confusing as people are making out.

Well maybe confusing isn't as much the word as nonsensical. It just doesn't make any sense. For instance - I get it, the heroes are all fighting each other because Tony and Tony disagree. But WHY? We're barely told what they disagree about, and there's no explanation attempted of why each one feels the way he does. And as I mentioned in the OP, we don't know why each hero chose each side.

Then there's the Punisher side plot. Why is he off killing heroes by himself? He's never been shown (and this includes in stories written by Bendis) wanting to kill heroes. How and why does this tie-in to the overall story?

I'm not a person who needs everything explained to me right away. But we're through 80% of this story with one issue left, and none of this stuff makes sense. It's just flat out bad story telling.

[Wolverine12]

I feel the need to interrupt and tell some posters to not talk about creators/creators family in a negative manner. You can critique the story all you want and you can draw comparisons and even make an assumption that a comic character is based on a real life person, but making negative or hurtful references about a creator or their family in a personal manner is unacceptable.

[shgs]

Well maybe confusing isn't as much the word as nonsensical. It just doesn't make any sense. For instance - I get it, the heroes are all fighting each other because Tony and Tony disagree. But WHY?

Erm, you literally just answered that question in the previous sentence. They are fighting because half of them take Tony's side and the other half take Tony's side. Yes it would have been great to actually see it gradually escalate instead of just skipping from the initial disagreement to the fight but that's not nonsensical, that's just bad pacing.

We're barely told what they disagree about, and there's no explanation attempted of why each one feels the way he does. And as I mentioned in the OP, we don't know why each hero chose each side.

Again I agree it it lacks any nuance whatsoever to just have the heroes team up with those form the same universe/domain, but, having gone down that nuance free route we do not need an explanation as to why they did it. They have chosen to side with the Tony from their universe because they know him, and therefore trust him more. Its not nonsensical.

Then there's the Punisher side plot. Why is he off killing heroes by himself? He's never been shown (and this includes in stories written by Bendis) wanting to kill heroes.

Punisher: You all did this. You made this madness.

He's not the first to decide all heroes are dangerous and need to be eradicated and he certainly won't be the last.

How and why does this tie-in to the overall story?

The story is about the heroes of the combined domains losing their shit. Punisher is part of that. Whether he will play a more significant role in the final issue remains to be seen.

I'm not a person who needs everything explained to me right away. But we're through 80% of this story with one issue left, and none of this stuff makes sense. It's just flat out bad story telling.

I'm not going to claim its good storytelling - that's for each person to decide, I personally think it's fairly mediocre - but it makes sense, whatever it lacks in execution.

[responsarbre]

All of the problems in this story are related to pacing and direction, actually.

The thing I like about Ultimate End, at least, is that Bendis is actually giving each of the characters distinct voices. All the way from Maria to Nick to Hulk to Cap to Tony to Bombshell to Black Widow.

This book makes zero sense and I have no idea what it's trying to do, but I appreciate reading all the characters interact.

[TakoM]

Okay I read it a few moments ago I must admit I didn't read number 3 before so I have some gap to understand why things turned out this way but the first thing I thought was this book should be renamed into Ultimate Stupidity. It is hard but it is like Marvel is these days with their authors and editors completely disconnected from a large amount of their readers.. sad but true and the numbers of the votes seems to confirm it.

[TakoM]

Ultimate Punisher took out 616 Punisher, and he can't shoot straight to take out Bombshell? He isn't going to hit any of the heroes in action then.

616 Punisher is absolute immortal he can't die shown last in Thunderbolts first in .. forgot it but when the Punisher committed suicide the underline reason is neither hell nor heaven want him so he will always send back immediately .

[Kurolegacy]

Well maybe confusing isn't as much the word as nonsensical. It just doesn't make any sense. For instance - I get it, the heroes are all fighting each other because Tony and Tony disagree. But WHY? We're barely told what they disagree about, and there's no explanation attempted of why each one feels the way he does. And as I mentioned in the OP, we don't know why each hero chose each side.

Yea and this whole thing makes even less sense when you consider that up until that point, all the heroes had been working together. Hell they even tried to track down the Tonys together yet somehow the Tonys disagreeing suddenly has all the heroes decide to fight each other? What?

[Wolverine12]

I finally got to my LCBS and this was the first thing I read. I have to agree with Plawsky's review. I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said but there was one shining moment for me. When 616 Stark announces that he doesn't recognize Fury's authority and that he has no right to imprison Bruce and Fury simply responds "Wanna Bet." I loved it. That and Bagley is doing great work here. Other then that not much to say about this book other than I'm curious to see how it all gets wrapped up.