Really great article; so honest and answered this problem with the culling of 25% of LGBT solo stars. Well done, that man
If your classics minor taught you the ONLY same sex male relationships in Ancient Greece were between an adult and a minor; ask for your money back. That stems from lies specifically designed to discredit LGBT people. There are numerous same sex ADULT relationships in Ancient Greece (an entire army was made of adult soldiers in same sex relationships); sadly these are simply ignored by certain "scholars" to insidiously perpetuate this idea same sex male relationships stem from one source only.
"We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."
Uhhhmmmmm, I don't know if it's been posted, but Brett's swimsuit commissions of Sean and Foggy better be posted here.....(this is my way of asking you, Brett).
Thing about the bisexuality of Heracles, it wouldn't really be as 'progressive' as it sounds. I hate to be the jackass to remind everyone of this. But the Greeks were less 'progressive' and more 'perverted'.
To put it bluntly, in terms of who you were allowed to marry, the idea behind same sex marriages was that they had to love each other. Thing about it though, most of the sexual exploits in those myths had less to do with 'love' and more to do with 'glorified trophies'. In terms of the heroes of those stories like Hercules, it was rather commonplace for them to have an affair to no consequence, nor even the slightest of guilt. Even the Greek gods were total perverts who slept with whoever they wanted, but would go berserk at the idea of their lover choosing a 'mere mortal' over them.
To put it bluntly, having Hercules as an LGBT representative for MARVEL would be like having Mr.Slave from South Park be the iconic LGBT television character.
I think the modern Herc as a lusty pansexual guy works just like it would work for Starfox. Because his modern persona is so... lusty, I guess, that it seems like he wouldn't be limited in any way. Not only by gender but by conventional attractiveness. Herc is the kind of guy who I could see flirting with the Moleman because, hey, why not? It'd be a different experience. I think it just works as a maximization of his friendly, experience-seeking persona.
That said, I also think the acknowledgement of bisexual history based on Greece is problematic. Not because they were or were not pedophiles as soldiers. Not because they did or did not have homosexual relations.
Because their entire conception of sexuality was alien to us. Homosexuality and bisexuality are modern inventions. So is heterosexuality. Sexual orientation is an invention. Foucault really covers this as far as I'm concerned. Our conception of love as we think of it now is an invention. They didn't feel or think the way we do now 2000 years ago. They were constrained by what they had words and concepts for. And so are we.
You can bend this stuff with wildly anachronistic values like Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra but they didn't really have those feelings for one another. You're bending the culture to tell a story for the benefit of a modern audience. But anything with romantic love or sexual orientation is really an anchronism when you superimpose it on Greek mythology. I think you can do it and it's a great idea if you're doing it for the benefit of your audience. But don't claim to be doing it for history's sake.
I'll amend that slightly to suggest you certainly had desire like the story of Persephone. But desire regardless of the gender of your desire was always mindled with disappointment or violation. It was a feeling I think you were expected to overcome although people could feel for heroes who never did overcome their desire for first love or whathaveyou.
Not a word we use a lot in Los Angeles, but when I was in Oakland last month, every time I said "gay" they corrected me "queer!"
Um, that happens. A lot. Maybe you need to come to some bathrooms where I live, sounds like you're missing out
I have been a fan of Hercules since the 70s and my definitive version is Bob Layton’ which was never portrayed as bisexual. This is a storm in a teacup, but I think it would serve Marvel and DC well to develop a solid character guide to express the sexuality of each character to avoid this issue in the future. Would avoid a lot of conjecture on the part of readers like what happened here, and the Iceman incident.
Well said. In the context of Marvel comics, I think we should abandon the notion of canon related to Greek mythology and historical Greek culture. In my opinion as a reader, Greg Pak characterized Hercules as bisexual according to our modern 2015 definition of the concept. Dan Abnett doesn't have to characterize Hercules similarly, but I don't think it's unreasonable to be disappointed in Marvel for telling us that Hercules is definitively straight -- even if you disagree with my interpretation of Greg Pak's run.
Simply put, I want more LGBTQ characters at Marvel and I don't feel like I need a reason to justify that desire beyond just existing as a gay man in 2015.
First, I must say that I'm totally onboard with Hercules as a lusty bisexual guy. If anything, it makes him stand apart from all the other big bruisers on the MU.
And I understand Brett's point that there are so few LGBT heroes that every scrap is important, but damn it, the real fight is for Marvel and DC to stop giving the LGBT community only the table scraps.
In a way, what Greg Pak did, alluding to Hercules's sexuality in an cute one-page joke, is a lot like LGBT characters used to be treated in the 1980s and before. You alluded to it in a coy manner, instead of just showing it honestly and openly. It is fake diversity, like making Loki and Constantine "bisexual" without ever following on it. Or the slash phenomenon that have cute male characters almost flirting on screen, but always, always stopping short of following on it.
It seems like they want to please the LGBT community and their allies, but they also don't want to displease the guys that are uncomfortable with homosexuality. When you base a character's sexual orientation on jokes and hints only, you make it possible for the more anti-gay readers to ignore it.
In a way, it's more honest to just confirm Hercules as straight. OR to write stories where Hercules's bisexuality is addressed openly. Just stop with the cute jokes and hints.
As a kid reading the X-Men, I loved Storm, Phoenix, Kitty Pryde and Rogue. Being a straight male never factored into my enjoyment of those characters. I'm not being dismissive of the LBGT community and I'm all for diversity in the creative community and characters but I'm lost on the whole identifying with the characters as the only outlet for enjoying them. Colossus is my favorite member of the X-Men. He was my favorite from the first issue of the X-Men that I saw (Uncanny #103, my older brother's copy). I'm not a Russian farm boy but I enjoyed that aspect of his character, even during the Cold War years when we were supposed to hate Russians. When Millar made him gay in Ultimate X-Men, I was surprised but I was more upset that the farm boy characterization was replaced. He was still my favorite character even of an alternate version of the X-Men that I know and love.
It's not about ONLY identifying with LGBT characters; it's about a) having a varied option of LGBT characters, b) liking having SOME of our favourite characters be relatable. I've never read a Marvel solo series with a gay male as the star. It's not that I don't find enjoyment in Daredevil or She-hulk or Angela... it's I would like to have option of reading a solo star who dates men (like me) and right now I have none. My favourite character is Moonstone; I was OVER THR MOON when she briefly had a solo series (though it was still really Carol's).
People "identify" with different things; and often to a str8 white male they don't feel a need to "identify" because all media caters to them. Nearly all films have someone like them, nearly all comics, nearly all books. And that awesome. But I think we have enough LGBT, POC and female posters saying they do (on occasions) like to see someone "like them" in their beloved media. And it's concerning when Marvel seem so out of touch with LGBT issues in comics that they cull 25% of their LGBT solo stars and not even realise they did it. And not understand how (when added to the near LGBT free films and TV series; and the utter absent of ever having a gay or lesbian solo ongoing) this becomes an issue.
I hope I have explained that okay; on my phone so sometimes it's hard to make sure I flowed/didn't miss stuff out
Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 08-06-2015 at 10:15 AM.
"We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."