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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    Bi? Sure. Given the s##t-storm that'd kick up, I doubt they'd go for it but it wouldn't surprise me.
    I assume all men are somewhere on the spectrum, and we'll be discussing Captain America's bisexuality in 3015...although even that might be wishful thinking

    Great article Brett! Hercules is my favorite bi bear as well.

  2. #32
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Really great article; so honest and answered this problem with the culling of 25% of LGBT solo stars. Well done, that man

    Quote Originally Posted by The Indestructible Man View Post
    As someone with a classics minor from college, this is one of two arguments which really bugs me. The mythological representation of Hercules is nothing like what the modern identity of bisexuality. The Greco-Roman concept of masculinity wherein many married men would have monogamous sexual relationship with their wives *except* in the context of mentoring (and being sexually involved with) teenage of younger boys in a power relationship is NOT the sort of adults in consenting relationship that modern LGBT context presumes –*it's honestly the ancient version of what the coaches at Penn State were arrested for and many priests and scoutmasters remain under investigation by their organizations about on account of substantial accusations. There *was* historical and literary depictions of same-sex romance and intercourse in the classical world between adults (be mindful that not all emotional interaction between men in old sources is sexual –*prior to about WWI and the changes in masculinity brought about by total warfare, close male friends interacted much more like how we still things of heterosexual "girlfriends" interacting in terms of emotional contact –*and that Roman satire in particular played with the device of male romance became of the lack of actresses in theater), but we don't see any examples of Heracles/Hercules among them.

    The other argument is an unspoken one. All the discussions are about Axel Alonso – or occasionally referencing one previous line by Pak and Van Lente. Yet, no one actually mentions Dan Abnett or his desires for the series. The focus on sexuality here is huge, as it was in the "marketing" in interviews for the latest Loki series (which, ironically, now has fans up in arms because Al Ewing didn't have Loki hook up with any guys during the run) –*Abnett has made it quite clear what the focus of the series is about in the initial interviews, and (if anything) Hercules' sexuality and who he's dating is pretty much the further thing from his mind. So, not trying to establish a new sexual beachhead for the character makes absolute sense for editorial if that's not what the writer is going for. This book has a certain narrative focus on Hercules, even in regards to his past, and his love life and sexuality are NOT that focus –*if anything, it appears that the character is seeking to avoid his sexual ways after a fashion. And, to be honest, given the focus that so many books are putting onto the love lives of characters, that's a diversity that I and many others are looking forward to!
    If your classics minor taught you the ONLY same sex male relationships in Ancient Greece were between an adult and a minor; ask for your money back. That stems from lies specifically designed to discredit LGBT people. There are numerous same sex ADULT relationships in Ancient Greece (an entire army was made of adult soldiers in same sex relationships); sadly these are simply ignored by certain "scholars" to insidiously perpetuate this idea same sex male relationships stem from one source only.
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  3. #33
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    Uhhhmmmmm, I don't know if it's been posted, but Brett's swimsuit commissions of Sean and Foggy better be posted here.....(this is my way of asking you, Brett).

  4. #34
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    Thing about the bisexuality of Heracles, it wouldn't really be as 'progressive' as it sounds. I hate to be the jackass to remind everyone of this. But the Greeks were less 'progressive' and more 'perverted'.
    To put it bluntly, in terms of who you were allowed to marry, the idea behind same sex marriages was that they had to love each other. Thing about it though, most of the sexual exploits in those myths had less to do with 'love' and more to do with 'glorified trophies'. In terms of the heroes of those stories like Hercules, it was rather commonplace for them to have an affair to no consequence, nor even the slightest of guilt. Even the Greek gods were total perverts who slept with whoever they wanted, but would go berserk at the idea of their lover choosing a 'mere mortal' over them.

    To put it bluntly, having Hercules as an LGBT representative for MARVEL would be like having Mr.Slave from South Park be the iconic LGBT television character.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimberWolf View Post
    Do you think it is a common practice for gay men to hit on other men, whether they be gay or straight, in a bathroom? GEEZ....it's 2015, PLEASE get with the times. Do you know how offensive that is to gay men, of which, I am one? I would NEVER, EVER dream of doing something like that, nor have I ever been approached or even heard of someone doing that. Please adjust your perception of gay men, we have more class that that.
    uhm, i'm quoting something that happened in a comic. dramatic much? and for that matter, i have had a gay man offer me a blowjob in a public bathroom, so no, i don't think it's completely unheard of.

  6. #36
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capt usa View Post
    I liked the article, but am I the only straight guy who found the rampant use of the word queer in the article unsettling?
    Same, I'm not a fan either. It was always a slur when I was a kid so it still seems that way when I hear it now.
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  7. #37
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    I think the modern Herc as a lusty pansexual guy works just like it would work for Starfox. Because his modern persona is so... lusty, I guess, that it seems like he wouldn't be limited in any way. Not only by gender but by conventional attractiveness. Herc is the kind of guy who I could see flirting with the Moleman because, hey, why not? It'd be a different experience. I think it just works as a maximization of his friendly, experience-seeking persona.

    That said, I also think the acknowledgement of bisexual history based on Greece is problematic. Not because they were or were not pedophiles as soldiers. Not because they did or did not have homosexual relations.

    Because their entire conception of sexuality was alien to us. Homosexuality and bisexuality are modern inventions. So is heterosexuality. Sexual orientation is an invention. Foucault really covers this as far as I'm concerned. Our conception of love as we think of it now is an invention. They didn't feel or think the way we do now 2000 years ago. They were constrained by what they had words and concepts for. And so are we.

    You can bend this stuff with wildly anachronistic values like Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra but they didn't really have those feelings for one another. You're bending the culture to tell a story for the benefit of a modern audience. But anything with romantic love or sexual orientation is really an anchronism when you superimpose it on Greek mythology. I think you can do it and it's a great idea if you're doing it for the benefit of your audience. But don't claim to be doing it for history's sake.

  8. #38
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    I'll amend that slightly to suggest you certainly had desire like the story of Persephone. But desire regardless of the gender of your desire was always mindled with disappointment or violation. It was a feeling I think you were expected to overcome although people could feel for heroes who never did overcome their desire for first love or whathaveyou.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by legion_quest View Post
    I'm gay and I'm with you. I absolutely HATE it. The word hasnt been reclaimed, and it's just a real bug bear of mine to see it used over and over like this. GREAT article, totally agree with it, but yeah, hate the language use.
    Not a word we use a lot in Los Angeles, but when I was in Oakland last month, every time I said "gay" they corrected me "queer!"

    Quote Originally Posted by TimberWolf View Post
    Do you think it is a common practice for gay men to hit on other men, whether they be gay or straight, in a bathroom? GEEZ....it's 2015, PLEASE get with the times. Do you know how offensive that is to gay men, of which, I am one? I would NEVER, EVER dream of doing something like that, nor have I ever been approached or even heard of someone doing that. Please adjust your perception of gay men, we have more class that that.
    Um, that happens. A lot. Maybe you need to come to some bathrooms where I live, sounds like you're missing out

  10. #40
    Not Getting Any Younger Kikaider's Avatar
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    I have been a fan of Hercules since the 70s and my definitive version is Bob Layton’ which was never portrayed as bisexual. This is a storm in a teacup, but I think it would serve Marvel and DC well to develop a solid character guide to express the sexuality of each character to avoid this issue in the future. Would avoid a lot of conjecture on the part of readers like what happened here, and the Iceman incident.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    I think the modern Herc as a lusty pansexual guy works just like it would work for Starfox. Because his modern persona is so... lusty, I guess, that it seems like he wouldn't be limited in any way. Not only by gender but by conventional attractiveness. Herc is the kind of guy who I could see flirting with the Moleman because, hey, why not? It'd be a different experience. I think it just works as a maximization of his friendly, experience-seeking persona.

    That said, I also think the acknowledgement of bisexual history based on Greece is problematic. Not because they were or were not pedophiles as soldiers. Not because they did or did not have homosexual relations.

    Because their entire conception of sexuality was alien to us. Homosexuality and bisexuality are modern inventions. So is heterosexuality. Sexual orientation is an invention. Foucault really covers this as far as I'm concerned. Our conception of love as we think of it now is an invention. They didn't feel or think the way we do now 2000 years ago. They were constrained by what they had words and concepts for. And so are we.

    You can bend this stuff with wildly anachronistic values like Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra but they didn't really have those feelings for one another. You're bending the culture to tell a story for the benefit of a modern audience. But anything with romantic love or sexual orientation is really an anchronism when you superimpose it on Greek mythology. I think you can do it and it's a great idea if you're doing it for the benefit of your audience. But don't claim to be doing it for history's sake.
    Well said. In the context of Marvel comics, I think we should abandon the notion of canon related to Greek mythology and historical Greek culture. In my opinion as a reader, Greg Pak characterized Hercules as bisexual according to our modern 2015 definition of the concept. Dan Abnett doesn't have to characterize Hercules similarly, but I don't think it's unreasonable to be disappointed in Marvel for telling us that Hercules is definitively straight -- even if you disagree with my interpretation of Greg Pak's run.

    Simply put, I want more LGBTQ characters at Marvel and I don't feel like I need a reason to justify that desire beyond just existing as a gay man in 2015.

  12. #42
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    First, I must say that I'm totally onboard with Hercules as a lusty bisexual guy. If anything, it makes him stand apart from all the other big bruisers on the MU.

    And I understand Brett's point that there are so few LGBT heroes that every scrap is important, but damn it, the real fight is for Marvel and DC to stop giving the LGBT community only the table scraps.

    In a way, what Greg Pak did, alluding to Hercules's sexuality in an cute one-page joke, is a lot like LGBT characters used to be treated in the 1980s and before. You alluded to it in a coy manner, instead of just showing it honestly and openly. It is fake diversity, like making Loki and Constantine "bisexual" without ever following on it. Or the slash phenomenon that have cute male characters almost flirting on screen, but always, always stopping short of following on it.

    It seems like they want to please the LGBT community and their allies, but they also don't want to displease the guys that are uncomfortable with homosexuality. When you base a character's sexual orientation on jokes and hints only, you make it possible for the more anti-gay readers to ignore it.

    In a way, it's more honest to just confirm Hercules as straight. OR to write stories where Hercules's bisexuality is addressed openly. Just stop with the cute jokes and hints.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rene Narciso View Post
    First, I must say that I'm totally onboard with Hercules as a lusty bisexual guy. If anything, it makes him stand apart from all the other big bruisers on the MU.

    And I understand Brett's point that there are so few LGBT heroes that every scrap is important, but damn it, the real fight is for Marvel and DC to stop giving the LGBT community only the table scraps.

    In a way, what Greg Pak did, alluding to Hercules's sexuality in an cute one-page joke, is a lot like LGBT characters used to be treated in the 1980s and before. You alluded to it in a coy manner, instead of just showing it honestly and openly. It is fake diversity, like making Loki and Constantine "bisexual" without ever following on it. Or the slash phenomenon that have cute male characters almost flirting on screen, but always, always stopping short of following on it.

    It seems like they want to please the LGBT community and their allies, but they also don't want to displease the guys that are uncomfortable with homosexuality. When you base a character's sexual orientation on jokes and hints only, you make it possible for the more anti-gay readers to ignore it.

    In a way, it's more honest to just confirm Hercules as straight. OR to write stories where Hercules's bisexuality is addressed openly. Just stop with the cute jokes and hints.
    Agreed! On all counts. We need more straightforward portrayals of LGBT characters and fewer apologies/qualifications for demanding more.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by sberg1 View Post
    Perhaps the sexuality of a character didn't matter to some because they had never been unrepresented in mainstream entertainment? As a gay man myself I know that I used to cling to (mostly when I was young/naive and in the closet) any character that showed interest in the same sex - whether I liked the character or not. For me it was nice knowing that, yeah, there are other people out there like me.
    As a kid reading the X-Men, I loved Storm, Phoenix, Kitty Pryde and Rogue. Being a straight male never factored into my enjoyment of those characters. I'm not being dismissive of the LBGT community and I'm all for diversity in the creative community and characters but I'm lost on the whole identifying with the characters as the only outlet for enjoying them. Colossus is my favorite member of the X-Men. He was my favorite from the first issue of the X-Men that I saw (Uncanny #103, my older brother's copy). I'm not a Russian farm boy but I enjoyed that aspect of his character, even during the Cold War years when we were supposed to hate Russians. When Millar made him gay in Ultimate X-Men, I was surprised but I was more upset that the farm boy characterization was replaced. He was still my favorite character even of an alternate version of the X-Men that I know and love.

  15. #45
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Kane View Post
    As a kid reading the X-Men, I loved Storm, Phoenix, Kitty Pryde and Rogue. Being a straight male never factored into my enjoyment of those characters. I'm not being dismissive of the LBGT community and I'm all for diversity in the creative community and characters but I'm lost on the whole identifying with the characters as the only outlet for enjoying them. Colossus is my favorite member of the X-Men. He was my favorite from the first issue of the X-Men that I saw (Uncanny #103, my older brother's copy). I'm not a Russian farm boy but I enjoyed that aspect of his character, even during the Cold War years when we were supposed to hate Russians. When Millar made him gay in Ultimate X-Men, I was surprised but I was more upset that the farm boy characterization was replaced. He was still my favorite character even of an alternate version of the X-Men that I know and love.
    It's not about ONLY identifying with LGBT characters; it's about a) having a varied option of LGBT characters, b) liking having SOME of our favourite characters be relatable. I've never read a Marvel solo series with a gay male as the star. It's not that I don't find enjoyment in Daredevil or She-hulk or Angela... it's I would like to have option of reading a solo star who dates men (like me) and right now I have none. My favourite character is Moonstone; I was OVER THR MOON when she briefly had a solo series (though it was still really Carol's).

    People "identify" with different things; and often to a str8 white male they don't feel a need to "identify" because all media caters to them. Nearly all films have someone like them, nearly all comics, nearly all books. And that awesome. But I think we have enough LGBT, POC and female posters saying they do (on occasions) like to see someone "like them" in their beloved media. And it's concerning when Marvel seem so out of touch with LGBT issues in comics that they cull 25% of their LGBT solo stars and not even realise they did it. And not understand how (when added to the near LGBT free films and TV series; and the utter absent of ever having a gay or lesbian solo ongoing) this becomes an issue.

    I hope I have explained that okay; on my phone so sometimes it's hard to make sure I flowed/didn't miss stuff out
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 08-06-2015 at 10:15 AM.
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

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