In Your Face Jam: Why Bisexual Hercules Matters To <i>Me</i>

[Kieran_Frost]

We already have a lot of books with lgbt characters.

Uncanny xmen with Mystique
Extraordinary xmen with Iceman
New avengers with hulkling and wiccan

We also already have some female ongoing and female led books.

We also have a lot of black characters already on Marvel books.

Yet you guys ask for more because you all feel you're poorly represented still.

How about me as a filipino, are we even getting one? How about the other races?

If you really care about representation then try to ask for what's not there, not that there's already a representative but you still want more representives.

But im fine if you ask for an lgbt representative who has been having an ongoing series. Or perhaps one of the main members of the avengers because we havent got one for that team.

But this i say. We dont need a representative for each team. Give chance to others who dont even have a representation.

Ahhhhh... the old "we've given you your scraps, be grateful" argument. Several things:
a) if you want more Filopino representation; make a thread about it, I would happily support such an idea
b) at any one time we have "roughly" six Marvel books with LGBT characters. They are almost never the lead or leader. They rarely have an LGBT romance in them (we can still count the number of LGBT kisses in Marvel comics; that should tell you something).
c) we've never had a gay solo series; so YEAH I still consider myself poorly represented
d) anyone who consistently comes into LGBT thread, and coincidentally is rarely being supportive of LGBT characters, maybe shouldn't cart put the phrase "if you really cared about diversity"
e) you're fine with us asking for an LGBT solo series. Well that's sort of missing the point, we don't need/nor seek "permission".
f) not every team needs LGBT rep, agreed. Is anyone asking for that?????

[kevinism]

As a kid reading the X-Men, I loved Storm, Phoenix, Kitty Pryde and Rogue. Being a straight male never factored into my enjoyment of those characters. I'm not being dismissive of the LBGT community and I'm all for diversity in the creative community and characters but I'm lost on the whole identifying with the characters as the only outlet for enjoying them. Colossus is my favorite member of the X-Men. He was my favorite from the first issue of the X-Men that I saw (Uncanny #103, my older brother's copy). I'm not a Russian farm boy but I enjoyed that aspect of his character, even during the Cold War years when we were supposed to hate Russians. When Millar made him gay in Ultimate X-Men, I was surprised but I was more upset that the farm boy characterization was replaced. He was still my favorite character even of an alternate version of the X-Men that I know and love.

You would understand if you grew up having to hide who you are because there is literally nobody in your like life you.

[Lee Stone]

Has anyone asked Greg Pak, the guy who was actually writing Hercules during his most successful run and wrote the scene where it was hinted at?
That's who I would believe.

Alonso's statement sounds more like something a football manager would say to the press to avert questions about a star quarterback.

Oh... think this is what I was looking for:
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3589379

[Kieran_Frost]

Has anyone asked Greg Pak, the guy who was actually writing Hercules during his most successful run and wrote the scene where it was hinted at?
That's who I would believe.

Alonso's statement sounds more like something a football manager would say to the press to avert questions about a star quarterback.

Oh... think this is what I was looking for:
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3589379

There is also a Twitter comment where Greg categorically says Herc is bi. The image is in the LGBT Marvel Appreciation thread on the first page

[Keola Kent]

They didn't feel or think the way we do now 2000 years ago. They were constrained by what they had words and concepts for. And so are we.

Way too Sapir-Whorfian for reality. [No, it's not a Star Trek term. Google "Sapir-Whorf hypothesis".]

Let's take a look at an ancient source that does not have a positive image of homosexuality. Putting sex aside (because the statement was about emotions not activity), it is clear in the book of Samuel that Jonathan loves David. It is not just a bromance. (What David experiences is much more complicated.) The love is deep. It's clearly acknowledged by Saul, who detests it and rightly believes that because of it Jonathan will put David ahead of his own advantage. (Note that Saul's anger is utilitarian. He isn't angry because it's wrong for Jonathan to love David, but because it's wrong for Jonathan to love David more than sustaining the dynasty.) Is Jonathan influenced by the norms of his times? Yes. Is he influenced by the philosophies and theologies of the day? Yes. Is it possible that societal norms prevented him from seeking any sexual relationship? Yes. But there is no evidence that his emotional life is bound by the language he happens to speak. After all, don't we all have experience with emotions for which we "have no words"??

but I'm not sure that any of that has anything to do with Hercules, either the Greek original or the Marvel version(s). Hercules is simply brimming with passion, and he's not a guy to deny himself pleasure just because some people are particular about the gender of whomever they play with.

In any case, I'm glad that we have moved from the smooth/shaven chests of the Silver Age to Herc's big masculine hairy pecs.

[capt usa]

Capt USA: The term "queer" was more or less reclaimed by LGBT folks, but it can be a little jarring to people who haven't encountered the way it's used in this article. As Brett is using it, it roughly means "of a non-default sexual orientation and/or gender identity." It grew partly out of a desire to reclaim formerly-hurtful words, and partly out of necessity, since LGBT language, when referring to communities, can get kind of muddy. For example, "lesbian" is gender-specific, but "gay" gets used both ways. This usage of the word queer also cuts down on excessively long paragraphs while acknowledging that there's a ton of diversity among people who fall outside orientation or gender defaults. The word has been getting used this way for at least 20 years, but a lot of straight people have never had

Anyway, I'm a fan, mostly because I've tried *not* using the word while talking broadly about sexually-diverse populations. Incredibly useful tool. Anyway, sorry you were put off by the use of the word, but hey! Maybe knowing this will be useful to you later?

As to Hercules... Yeah, it was annoying that Alonso stated categorically that Hercules is straight. However, what he has to say on the topic isn't all that important. He's smart enough that he might just change his mind. He's also an editor, not a writer. I don't know that there are many writers who can resist at least alluding to Hercules being not-straight; I mean, the character on whom Hercules was based clearly fell outside the Kinsey 6 model.

What bothered me most about this kerfluffle is just that it was the suggestion of Hercules being bi rather than gay that was (temporarily) squashed. There's little gay/lesbian representation in mainstream comics. There's even less representation of bisexual people, which is a huge shame. (Bisexual people too often get side-eye from both the gay and straight communities, and there's very little positive representation of bi people anywhere. This is doubly shame if I'm correct in my suspicion that there are more people who fall outside clear lines of "heterosexual" and "homosexual" than anybody realizes.)

Talking to a friend about this yesterday and he said similar comments that was put out here. His comments was that the word queer is used in the gay community frequently.

[capt usa]

You forgot fact '0'.

That the mythological character that Marvel's Hercules is based on is bisexual.

So, that mention in 2010 was less about making Hercules bisexual, and more to do with making the character line up with what was established in mythology.

Not that everything in the Marvel Universe has to line up with mythology (Thor's hair being blonde instead of red, for example) but you can't really claim that this came out of nowhere.

And there is nothing in his long history with Marvel which shows that Herc isn't bi. Yes, he's slept with a lot of women. Yes, he clearly prefers women. But never have you seen a man come onto Herc and have him say 'No, thank you'.

Now I'm imagining Hercules behaving in much a similar manner as Captain Jack Harkness.


One thing I keep thinking about immortal characters, is that a friend of mine once made a joke, imagine you are a person who has pretty much had any woman you want for dozens of years, that maybe something different once in a while might enhance your mood. Hercules might have an X chromosome preference but not a Y chromosome limit.

[Dafyd]

I hear you; as an ordained pastor, I was thrilled when Nightcrawler became an ordained Catholic priest, only to be disappointed when it was retconned into an illusion. It happens.

[Kieran_Frost]

Talking to a friend about this yesterday and he said similar comments that was put out here. His comments was that the word queer is used in the gay community frequently.

Personally I don't care for the word "queer" and don't use it BUT many in the LGBT community do, and have reclaimed it.

[Kieran_Frost]

I haven't read comic books in years, so I wonder if Hercules has a relationship with Amadeus Cho?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedera...ancient_Greece

No, so far Northstar, possibly Hymlas (sp?) and maybe Wolverine (SEE: Claremont)

[Miracleman]

I am a minority due to coming from a spanish speaking backround. I don't care if Marvel creates a bunch of Spanish Speaking characters just because they feel pressured by some groups to fill a quota. This goes the same for people who make it more important that the sexuality of the character be a defining quality than anything else. This smacks of arroagance and a personal issue that others have to feel accepted through other mediums when they find no acceptance elsewhere. The writer of this article himself stated he didn't care about Hercules till his sexuality was brought up. So essentially in the last few years,the small vocal group of LGBT fans and even non-fans who have an agenda. Go to comic-cons and scream for diversity rather than quality.

This is an excercise in seeking acceptance that has nothing to do with comics. I do not need more spanish speaking characters to "feel reflected".

[Steve068]

I am a minority due to coming from a spanish speaking backround. I don't care if Marvel creates a bunch of Spanish Speaking characters just because they feel pressured by some groups to fill a quota. This goes the same for people who make it more important that the sexuality of the character be a defining quality than anything else. This smacks of arroagance and a personal issue that others have to feel accepted through other mediums when they find no acceptance elsewhere. The writer of this article himself stated he didn't care about Hercules till his sexuality was brought up. So essentially in the last few years,the small vocal group of LGBT fans and even non-fans who have an agenda. Go to comic-cons and scream for diversity rather than quality.

This is an excercise in seeking acceptance that has nothing to do with comics. I do not need more spanish speaking characters to "feel reflected".

There's a big difference. Spanish speaking folk grow up around Spanish speaking folk. They are not usually isolated. An LGB teen can feel completely isolated and sometimes seeing someone else go through what they are on screen or on the page can literally be teh difference between life and death...

[Kieran_Frost]

There's a big difference. Spanish speaking folk grow up around Spanish speaking folk. They are not usually isolated. An LGB teen can feel completely isolated and sometimes seeing someone else go through what they are on screen or on the page can literally be teh difference between life and death...

Very true. Out of curiosity which heroes speak Spanish? I don't think Miles does, but Miguel and Ghost Rider? Do they?

[Silvermoth]

It matters to me too. most of gay history has been straight washed or has my High school history teacher said of Alexander the great "That part about him is unimportant and and should not be brought up when teaching about such people"

When I was growing up all of that was kept a secret from us. Every hero. Every legend. We had to be kept isolated in order to keep us compliant after all.

When I finally realised I was gay I started learning our history. I love it. There's so many great stories. I'm looking forward to the day when lgbtiq history can come out of the closet.

I also agree with the main article that Hercules' bisexuality was so important. I really hope abnett is aware and pushes him out of the closet again asap.

[Kieran_Frost]

When I was growing up all of that was kept a secret from us. Every hero. Every legend. We had to be kept isolated in order to keep us compliant after all.

When I finally realised I was gay I started learning our history. I love it. There's so many great stories. I'm looking forward to the day when lgbtiq history can come out of the closet.

I also agree with the main article that Hercules' bisexuality was so important. I really hope abnett is aware and pushes him out of the closet again asap.

Agreed; he summed it up perfectly. When representation is so rare we (understandably) cling to any and all LGBT rep; even if it was only in passing. Iceman came out while we had the TV intentionally ignored Constantine's LGBT status and Herc gets bierasure. Oh well; onward and upward.