In Your Face Jam: Why Bisexual Hercules Matters To <i>Me</i>

[Miracleman]

There's a big difference. Spanish speaking folk grow up around Spanish speaking folk. They are not usually isolated. An LGB teen can feel completely isolated and sometimes seeing someone else go through what they are on screen or on the page can literally be teh difference between life and death...

Say's who? Their are plenty of Spanish speaking people who go to the United States that don't speak a bit of english. They go thru alot of isolation and often ridicule when they can't defend themselves and get taken advantage of. You are right that an LGB teen can feel isolated,but to take it as far as them not finding association in comics being the reason why they would take their own life is a big stretch.

Again the issue here is,if a person is only defined by their sexual preference,that is a pretty hollow person. That would be like me saying I only like seeing emma frost when she is dressed like a a stripper. Because all that matters is that she is pretty and not that she is an intricate character.

In asking for more representation you also made it you're only focus and made characterization least important. How would you feel if people only cared about you or cared about you're sexual preference?

[ospfwildcard]

I don't think Marvel is beholden to the Greek character in such a way that they must incorporate every single aspect of Hercules in their stories. He is a public domain character after all.

[Kieran_Frost]

Say's who? Their are plenty of Spanish speaking people who go to the United States that don't speak a bit of english. They go thru alot of isolation and often ridicule when they can't defend themselves and get taken advantage of. You are right that an LGB teen can feel isolated,but to take it as far as them not finding association in comics being the reason why they would take their own life is a big stretch.

Again the issue here is,if a person is only defined by their sexual preference,that is a pretty hollow person. That would be like me saying I only like seeing emma frost when she is dressed like a a stripper. Because all that matters is that she is pretty and not that she is an intricate character.

In asking for more representation you also made it you're only focus and made characterization least important. How would you feel if people only cared about you or cared about you're sexual preference?

No-one is only defined by their sexuality. But to pretend or ignore that person's sexuality is a disservice. I'm an actor. I like comics. I'm gay. I'm engaged. My OCD appears in the form of lists and maps. I have two cats. I don't drive fast. My favourite colour is white. These are just some of the parts of what makes me whole. I'm not solely defined by my sexuality, that doesn't "sum me up"; but it sure as sh*t is part of who are am.

I don't think Marvel is beholden to the Greek character in such a way that they must incorporate every single aspect of Hercules in their stories. He is a public domain character after all.

True; but he was outed in the comics by Greg Pak. Who cares what Ancient Greek Herc is like, the issue is IN MARVEL COMICS he was bi and Axel erased that.

[ospfwildcard]

True; but he was outed in the comics by Greg Pak. Who cares what Ancient Greek Herc is like, the issue is IN MARVEL COMICS he was bi and Axel erased that.

Pak isn't the editor-in-chief.

[jeanvaljean]

Pak isn't the editor-in-chief.

Neither the book's editor nor the editor in chief stopped his story from being published.

[Kieran_Frost]

Pak isn't the editor-in-chief.

Neither is an interview comic canon Your arguement was about Ancient Greece Herc; I point out Greg Pak outed him in the comics (making Ancient Greece irrelevant) and now your response is "not editor and chief". Says a lot...

[Look]

Zeus had sex with animals wtf? Zeus was raised by a goat, Zeus uses an animal form a couple of times whilst doing the sex transformed himself into a swan etc beastiality zoophillia commonly accepted and practiced by the Greek pantheon? Poseidon reads as somthing of a rapist and Pan had sex with a goat, so ancient Greek writers were just... kinda... sexually perverted?

[Kieran_Frost]

As for the Hercules issue...
The writer's intention during his run on the series was that Hercules was bisexual. And as far as we know, his version of Hercules just preferred women most of the time.
Whatever the next writer decides is up to him. And Alonso now that it's brought to his attention.

I wonder if this will effect what the writer was going to do? By putting it under a microscope Axel has actually made Herc's bisexuality (or lack of it, now) far more widely known. I really wish we knew what Greg Pak thought of all of this.

[Lee-Sensei]

You forgot fact '0'.

That the mythological character that Marvel's Hercules is based on is bisexual.

So, that mention in 2010 was less about making Hercules bisexual, and more to do with making the character line up with what was established in mythology.

Not that everything in the Marvel Universe has to line up with mythology (Thor's hair being blonde instead of red, for example) but you can't really claim that this came out of nowhere.

And there is nothing in his long history with Marvel which shows that Herc isn't bi. Yes, he's slept with a lot of women. Yes, he clearly prefers women. But never have you seen a man come onto Herc and have him say 'No, thank you'.

True. Except that joke led to Living Lightning being officially established as being gay.

1) That's a strange argument. The comics have changed hundreds of things about the mythological character and many of them were of greater significance to the character than his bisexuality. Why should this one matter?

2) It is coming out of nowhere though. Hercules had been a marvel character for over 40 years before he we were given hints that he was bisexual and in all that time we'd never seen him show interest in anything, but women. I have no problem with having LGBT characters in Marvel. In fact, I welcome it... however making Hercules bisexual was the retcon here.

[Kieran_Frost]

2) It is coming out of nowhere though. Hercules had been a marvel character for over 40 years before he we were given hints that he was bisexual and in all that time we'd never seen him show interest in anything, but women. I have no problem with having LGBT characters in Marvel. In fact, I welcome it... however making Hercules bisexual was the retcon here.

It's not a retcon. Herc being bisexual doesn't contradict any past history; you can be bisexual and spent the next fifty years only sleeping with women, that doesn't mean you aren't bisexual. It just means you happen to only be with women. If you are a bisexual male, and marry a woman do you think that means you stop being bisexual? Don't be silly, that's not how sexuality works.

That said... why did you bother resurrecting this thread???

[Lee-Sensei]

It's not a retcon. Herc being bisexual doesn't contradict any past history; you can be bisexual and spent the next fifty years only sleeping with women, that doesn't mean you aren't bisexual. It just means you happen to only be with women. If you are a bisexual male, and marry a woman do you think that means you stop being bisexual? Don't be silly, that's not how sexuality works.

That said... why did you bother resurrecting this thread???

1) It kind of is. When Lee and Kirby created the character, was he bisexual? Was that their intention.

2) I didn't check the date, but it hasn't even been a month yet.

[Kieran_Frost]

1) It kind of is. When Lee and Kirby created the character, was he bisexual? Was that their intention.

That doesn't make it a retcon. Was it Lee and Kirby's intention that Herc had a sidekick called Amadeus Cho? No; doesn't make Cho a retcon. A retcon is contradicting established story (not intent). Herc being bisexual doesn't contradict his comic history; hence: not a retcon.

Something being revealed is not a retcon. That's like labelling Jeff Parker's story exploring Ghost's history a retcon. Did David Michelinie intend that to be Ghost's origins? Probably not (I think he probably intended us to never know, keeping the character's mystique), but it doesn't contradict anything written; so again: not a retcon.

[The_Greatest_Username]

A retcon would be to say that Hercules is actually the son of Odin, not the son of Zeus. Hercules being bisexual is more of a revelation because it doesn't contradict anything.

[Lee-Sensei]

That doesn't make it a retcon. Was it Lee and Kirby's intention that Herc had a sidekick called Amadeus Cho? No; doesn't make Cho a retcon. A retcon is contradicting established story (not intent). Herc being bisexual doesn't contradict his comic history; hence: not a retcon.

Something being revealed is not a retcon. That's like labelling Jeff Parker's story exploring Ghost's history a retcon. Did David Michelinie intend that to be Ghost's origins? Probably not (I think he probably intended us to never know, keeping the character's mystique), but it doesn't contradict anything written; so again: not a retcon.

Those are two completely different things and you know it. In any case, the big change isn't confirming that he's heterosexual. The overwhelming majority of his comic book history supports that. The big change was making him bisexual (and outside of Xtreme X-Men it was only ever implied).

[Kieran_Frost]

A retcon would be to say that Hercules is actually the son of Odin, not the son of Zeus. Hercules being bisexual is more of a revelation because it doesn't contradict anything.

Beautifully and succinctly put.

Those are two completely different things and you know it.

Why? The creator never intended him to have a sidekick named Cho; if he had intended to have a sidekick, he'd have been given one. He wasn't; that implies he wasn't meant to have one (unlike Cap). I see no difference, both are things the original creator never intended, that doesn't make it a retcon.

In any case, the big change isn't confirming that he's heterosexual. The overwhelming majority of his comic book history supports that. The big change was making him bisexual (and outside of Xtreme X-Men it was only ever implied).

Firstly, X-treme X-men Herc is an alternate reality Herc; we're talking about 616 Herc (who is the one who slept with Northstar). Secondly, I think it's easier to understand this when you have a good knowledge of what bisexuality means. Someone can be bisexual, and yet live their whole life never even kissing someone of the same-sex in a sexual way. Sexuality is not based on "body count" You can be bisexual and still spend your life in primarily str8 relationships (look at Anna Paquin; she's married to a man, but she identifies as bisexual, despite the likelihood of her never being with a woman again). Or you can be bisexual and primarily only be in same-sex relationships. Bisexuality is someone's sexuality, not a score chart of how many men and how many women they've been with. Nothing about Herc's bisexuality erases, contradicts or discredits his previous relationships or affections. Therefore it is not a retcon.

Another way of looking at it. Herc wears green and gold, one could assume it's his staple because he likes the colours; but if the comics revealed his favourite colour is blue, does the fact he's wore green and gold make it a retcon, or merely a new revelation/information? There is a difference between new information and contradictory information.

Posters throw around the word "retcon" far too freely, without actually realising what it means. Ultimately anything a fan doesn't like they label a retcon, when 95% of the time it's nothing of the sort. They just don't like it, and therefore don't want to accept it.