Do we basically educate all wrong?

[ScottSummers]

I guess in America, speaking strictly.

To preface, and if someone is foreign I'd probably weigh in on this below, my friend in the gym is German. Born and raised there, as far as I know until adulthood. He says schools are really different. They'd learn by doing and learn to compare things own their own merits as well. Other than that I can't claim experience so I have little idea what either of that means, honestly. His words.

But I've always felt smarter people, maybe not nerds, necessarily, but smarter people did tend to have one closet nerd aspect. Like LOTR or even something non nerdish, like Football, that they knew as well as an expert. It's sort of that transmission of that same zeal everywhere. I actually also know many in shape smart people for much, I suspect, the same reason.

So I've always felt expertise in one area tended to lead to a kind of clarity about other things. I also think direct experience tends to dispel a lot of what I think I'm not imagining, but in fact I am (celebrities live crazy lives for example. Most of the ones I've met were boring as crap). But it struck me that very little of this was offered in school, even college. And especially not buying a home, doing laundry, keeping a schedule, negotiating, [actual] business, money, getting a job, etc. Not meaning to be populist there. But yeah, it does seem like we're doing it all wrong doesn't it.

I do math everyday in my job, but it's mostly arithmetic and I'm an engineer. I'm very good at math, but only once did I ever have to solve for x when it wasn't done for me. But the main thing we do is we have to prove it to people, repeatedly. A lot. And then some more. That's one thing with science I have a pet peeve about: when people just use science like a facts encyclopedia, because it's all about how I arrive at my facts in the real world. I can't just read a book a memorize the answer the night before? Ya know? Mostly I just wait for the hamster to turn and go, huh, maybe I should try that. And I don't think school really prepares anyone, well me specifically, and through college, for that.

[CSTowle]

All wrong? No. Could we do better? Of course, but who determines what is better? And if it costs more than what we're doing now, how do we convince people (including many who would just as soon have us not pay to educate the general public at all) to pay up?

[Ghost]

Yes, American education could really improve imo. Its not the worst in the world, but we could learn more from some Nordic countries and Germany like you mentioned.

I think in Japan they also have 6 days of school, Im not sure if they get a summer break? Im pretty sure statistically they perform better than the US, but there are also many cultural differences to consider like distinct hierarchies and traditions.

In the past I have wondered why we didnt focus more on more practical things like OP mentioned. Or why there arent more opportunities for apprenticeships to get real world knowledge of a craft or profession you choose. But then that creates another dilemma, should everyone be forced to learn things like a second language, physics, trigonometry, fine arts, world history, and how to write research papers? Hoping that they will somehow become 'cultured'? Or should we focus on more practical things?

[PwrdOn]

I'd be extremely cautious of holding up the school systems in Asian countries as some kind of ideal. Those kinds of systems are set up to be so ridiculously stressful and competitive that a lot of the students just completely crack under the pressure. Perhaps more damagingly though, they ingrain a mindset where fear of failure is the only motivator that people have, success is defined only by the absence of failure and not anything that the student can feel pride or happiness in, only relief.

And while making education more "practical" might sound like a great idea, the truth of the matter is that anyone can go to trade school if they wanted to, but most choose to go learn the useless liberal arts stuff because, well, that's what all the rich and successful people seem to be doing and who wouldn't want to be like them?

[t hedge coke]

I stalled out somewhere between LotR, smart people eventually developing an expertise in something, and classes on laundry.

That said, my absolute favorite classes to teach, in the States, were critical theory and critical thinking classes, because a) no one likes to teach them because they're hard to grade and b) rote memorization won't save anyone's ass. Seeing students actually work through their problems and grow from it is remarkably rewarding, and not problems that are essentially timewasters, which, yes, a large percentage of math "story problems" are, and massive portions of pre-college history, which generally consists of dates and funny anecdotes about wooden teach or how the US never fought wars between the Civil War and WW2 (except for all those wars we fought).

[Ghost]

I'd be extremely cautious of holding up the school systems in Asian countries as some kind of ideal. Those kinds of systems are set up to be so ridiculously stressful and competitive that a lot of the students just completely crack under the pressure. Perhaps more damagingly though, they ingrain a mindset where fear of failure is the only motivator that people have, success is defined only by the absence of failure and not anything that the student can feel pride or happiness in, only relief.

And while making education more "practical" might sound like a great idea, the truth of the matter is that anyone can go to trade school if they wanted to, but most choose to go learn the useless liberal arts stuff because, well, that's what all the rich and successful people seem to be doing and who wouldn't want to be like them?

Oh I agree. It was more of a passing comparison, I didnt want to go too far off topic. Thus left it at "there are also many cultural differences to consider".

And not quite everyone can go to trade school, as circumstances differ. Tuition fees keep going up, and if you dont have some money saved up youd better hope you can get financial aid. If not, then there is the matter of paying off student loans for years and possibly not even finding a job you qualify for. Its a common trap Ive seen way too many friends fall into.

I also agree many liberal arts courses are basically worthless in the real world. I studied graphic design myself, and have seen this first hand. If its not something highly commercialized its very difficult to make a living. But then that brings me back to my original question: should things like history, various arts and advanced mathematics be a priority in basic education, or a choice only in advanced education? Is culture important? Or only the simplest path towards making a living?

Here is another can of worms: Who decides what is taught as scientific fact and non-biased history? The Texas textbooks issue will come up eventually.

[pro]

When I was in art school much of my study was paid for by the government. As it should be.
It provides equal opportunity across income scales. It ensures an educated population.

[PwrdOn]

Oh I agree. It was more of a passing comparison, I didnt want to go too far off topic. Thus left it at "there are also many cultural differences to consider".

And not quite everyone can go to trade school, as circumstances differ. Tuition fees keep going up, and if you dont have some money saved up youd better hope you can get financial aid. If not, then there is the matter of paying off student loans for years and possibly not even finding a job you qualify for. Its a common trap Ive seen way too many friends fall into.

I also agree many liberal arts courses are basically worthless in the real world. I studied graphic design myself, and have seen this first hand. If its not something highly commercialized its very difficult to make a living. But then that brings me back to my original question: should things like history, various arts and advanced mathematics be a priority in basic education, or a choice only in advanced education? Is culture important? Or only the simplest path towards making a living?

Here is another can of worms: Who decides what is taught as scientific fact and non-biased history? The Texas textbooks issue will come up eventually.

Certainly trade school can be expensive and your investment may not always pay off in the end, but the same is doubly true for attending college, yet many people are willing to make costly and potentially unnecessary sacrifices toward that when they wouldn't consider doing the same for a vocational education. I suppose that if it comes down to it, trade school will teach you specific skills but won't teach you how to learn like college will, and leave you out in the dust if your chosen field doesn't pan out for you.

There's a class issue at work here as well, since in equilibrium you would almost certainly see trade schools primarily targeting working class minorities while well to do white kids will still overwhelmingly choose college. Even if trade schools would have the advantage of guaranteed employment and a steadier income, which is far from assured, the upper strata of society would still be populated by those who graduated from top colleges with broader educational backgrounds. If some inner city kid has a real love for art and literature, is it really fair to push him down a practical career path for the sake of a guaranteed meal ticket?

[Prisoner 6655321]

I dunno. I don't think I agree but I could be wrong. I do think we can use a good bit of education reform. First of all, I think we need to defund most charter schools and revert that money towards public education. If other schools want to operate outside of the "traditional" public school system, fine but they ought to have to fund themselves. Secondly, I think we need to redraw district lines radically. Instead of being so specific community based each school should function as part of a larger framework of schools. This could mean more specialized schools in some instances and that seems to me to be the crux of what you're suggesting but this also helps lesson the quality of education gap between very poor districts and their much wealthier neighbors. We ought to do away with elected local school boards (replace them with (fewer) cabnets of qualified people appointed for terms by other elected officials) ; most of these people are just overly meddling parents with no education qualifications. No one in their right mind would suggest electing a plumber to be Attorney General. I think we need to do away with the obsession of evaluating schools / teachers to a standardized criteria and turn to a system that measures student progress in given areas rather than having a static standard. For all students, in the interest of a better democratic society we need to focus much more on history / civics / global politics and all criteria ought to be based on empirical facts / or critical evaluation of lit (etc.). Anyway, that's the bulk of how I'd change that.

[Wedge Antilles]

From my experience, high school (and college) didn't prepare me as well as I would've liked for the professional world, but I believe that's understandable. It's impossible for a school to prepare you for several hundred job possibilities.

Even within the world of civil engineering, college prepares me with the general theory and practices. Once I hit the streets, of course there was the design engineering world, which is somewhat well aligned with college curriculum. My positions after that first job, though, scattered across a wide spectrum that no single school could've adequately prepared me for.

[Arundel Armor Hunter]

I'd be extremely cautious of holding up the school systems in Asian countries as some kind of ideal. Those kinds of systems are set up to be so ridiculously stressful and competitive that a lot of the students just completely crack under the pressure. Perhaps more damagingly though, they ingrain a mindset where fear of failure is the only motivator that people have, success is defined only by the absence of failure and not anything that the student can feel pride or happiness in, only relief.

And while making education more "practical" might sound like a great idea, the truth of the matter is that anyone can go to trade school if they wanted to, but most choose to go learn the useless liberal arts stuff because, well, that's what all the rich and successful people seem to be doing and who wouldn't want to be like them?

There is a huge institutional bias for degrees. It's a culture problem that won't turn around soon.

[Arundel Armor Hunter]

For all students, in the interest of a better democratic society we need to focus much more on history / civics / global politics and all criteria ought to be based on empirical facts / or critical evaluation of lit (etc.).

People who are into that will seek it out no matter what. the was majority of people don't care for it and don't need it to make a living.