PREVIEW: Green Arrow, #43

[Rakzo]

I forgot to mention that if there's one thing, one little thing I like about Percy's work here is that he knows how to portray Emiko. She simply sounds right.

On the other hand (and this is actually a big problem), he doesn't know how to portray Oliver, Percy makes him take himself way too seriously and sound pretty stupid while he's at it.

Also, God, the guy has made me hate Fyff. During Lemire's run he was a bit of a dork but genuinely invested in helping others and being competent at his job. Here, he just doesn't care to the point that he almost let Ollie and Emiko get killed because he was taking a dump in the worst time possible.

Isn't there an issue focusing on George coming up? I might actually give that one a try, as long as these arc villains are gone for good.

Yep, there's an issue focusing on the supposed "mythology" around George (which could turn-out to be either really cool or really stupid).

Also, the villains got fortunately killed here. Unfortunately, their deaths were so abrupt that failed to leave an impression.

[Rakzo]

You know, I've been thinking about something that has been bothering me: Why wasn't Diggle of all people present here?

Wouldn't it have been much better to have an actual black man as our point of perspective to actually contrast with the current topic? Let's be honest, Ollie is the whitest, blondest and richest guy you can find so having another character with a different view would have created an actual interesting conflict about such problems.

Just replace the stupid robots with cops, get rid of the one-dimensional villains and add some complex characters, stop the pretentious narration and actually make people talk like people. You do that and you could have gotten a pretty decent story about serious subjects.

Is not hard to do for God's sake.

[PiercedMonk]

You know, I've been thinking about something that has been bothering me: Why wasn't Diggle of all people present here?

Wouldn't it have been much better to have an actual black man as our point of perspective to actually contrast with the current topic? Let's be honest, Ollie is the whitest, blondest and richest guy you can find so having another character with a different view would have created an actual interesting conflict about such problems.

Just replace the stupid robots with cops, get rid of the one-dimensional villains and add some complex characters, stop the pretentious narration and actually make people talk like people. You do that and you could have gotten a pretty decent story about serious subjects.

I haven't read the issue, but assuming it's more or less a continuation of the problems I had with the first two installments of Percy's run, I'm going to have to disagree.

The idea that a white person can't stand up against systemic injustice and institutionalized racism is not particularly helpful. Now I'd argue that Ollie's depiction in Percy's run hasn't been great on that front; between being in a meeting room where the villain rolled out his plan to put drones on the street that profile and tear apart teenagers for grand theft cheeseburger, and didn't think it was worth paying attention to at the time, and the old woman in Percy's first issue treating him as some sort of white savior, the book has not handled these issues very well. And yeah, having Diggle there might have mitigated the problem some, but I also wouldn't trust that Percy would portray Dig very well either.

With specific regards to the drones, I think there could be a good story there; the increasing militarization of the police force is a very real issue. Having them be completely autonomous and maiming petty criminals is so ridiculously over the top that it robs the story of any gravitas, but in the hands of a more skillful writer, that wouldn't be an issue.

Of course, that's the problem with Percy's storyline all over, isn't it? I'm almost curious enough to check out one of his novels to see if he's as blunt and clumsy there. Maybe he just wrongly assumes that superhero comics have no room for subtlety?

[Drz]

You know, I've been thinking about something that has been bothering me: Why wasn't Diggle of all people present here?

Wasn't he the black man at the end of our issue when the drones self destruct?

[HsssH]

In all honesty, though, as easy as it is to criticize this and make fun of it, it's not terrible, especially compared to some of the drek that DC has published ever since Flashpoint (ie, everything from Ann Nocenti and Scott Lobdell). Percy has a lot of potential, but he needs to realize that his writing is not as intelligent as he thinks it is, and stop compressing six-issue stories into 2-3 issue arcs.

I think that Klarion was more interesting than this.

With specific regards to the drones, I think there could be a good story there; the increasing militarization of the police force is a very real issue. Having them be completely autonomous and maiming petty criminals is so ridiculously over the top that it robs the story of any gravitas, but in the hands of a more skillful writer, that wouldn't be an issue.

It reminded me a bit of RoboCop but without any satire or absurdity of society. Instead Percy went for "serious business" dialogues.

Wasn't he the black man at the end of our issue when the drones self destruct?

That would be funny.

[Rakzo]

I haven't read the issue, but assuming it's more or less a continuation of the problems I had with the first two installments of Percy's run, I'm going to have to disagree.

The idea that a white person can't stand up against systemic injustice and institutionalized racism is not particularly helpful. Now I'd argue that Ollie's depiction in Percy's run hasn't been great on that front; between being in a meeting room where the villain rolled out his plan to put drones on the street that profile and tear apart teenagers for grand theft cheeseburger, and didn't think it was worth paying attention to at the time, and the old woman in Percy's first issue treating him as some sort of white savior, the book has not handled these issues very well. And yeah, having Diggle there might have mitigated the problem some, but I also wouldn't trust that Percy would portray Dig very well either.

My point about such thing was that the inclusion of Diggle would have created a more complex scenario where both perspectives could have been explored.

There seems to be a conflict of interests because people seem to want white people to be more involved in race problems but at the same time they don't want them to be "White Saviors". To me, Oliver should definitely be involved in those kind of topics but it should be executed in a subtle way so it doesn't seem like he's acting either preachy or "Holier than thou" (which would be pretty stupid considering the kind of flawed person that Ollie is).

With specific regards to the drones, I think there could be a good story there; the increasing militarization of the police force is a very real issue. Having them be completely autonomous and maiming petty criminals is so ridiculously over the top that it robs the story of any gravitas, but in the hands of a more skillful writer, that wouldn't be an issue.

I believe that serious issues should be handled in a serious manner and quite frankly, the drones are completely out of place in that premise.

Using cops could definitely create an interesting scenario where they could also explore the motivations of such people as well.

Of course, that's the problem with Percy's storyline all over, isn't it? I'm almost curious enough to check out one of his novels to see if he's as blunt and clumsy there. Maybe he just wrongly assumes that superhero comics have no room for subtlety?

Yeah, at this point I don't even want to get near his novels.

[PiercedMonk]

My point about such thing was that the inclusion of Diggle would have created a more complex scenario where both perspectives could have been explored.

Sure, I absolutely agree with that perspective.

There seems to be a conflict of interests because people seem to want white people to be more involved in race problems but at the same time they don't want them to be "White Saviors". To me, Oliver should definitely be involved in those kind of topics but it should be executed in a subtle way so it doesn't seem like he's acting either preachy or "Holier than thou" (which would be pretty stupid considering the kind of flawed person that Ollie is).

I dunno. I like it when Ollie is preachy, because that's the kind of flawed that he is. Granted, I am still thinking of him as the dude who kicked out Roy Harper for using drugs, as opposed

The problem with the white saviour trope is that it casts a single white person in the role of the lone individual who can come in to solve a problem that's completely overwhelming a group of people of colour. It's condescending to an obnoxious degree, and portrays the white saviour character as being the only one with any power of agency.

Oliver should absolutely be standing up for the marginalized and underprivileged, "looking out for the little guy" as he says repeatedly in that JLU episode where he joins the Justice League. He just needs to do so in such a way that he's working with those people. It's one of the reasons Green Arrow generally works better when he's not rich. At least, depictions of Green Arrow where he skews towards being more concerned with issues of social justice.

I believe that serious issues should be handled in a serious manner and quite frankly, the drones are completely out of place in that premise.

Using cops could definitely create an interesting scenario where they could also explore the motivations of such people as well.

Drones as killer robots straight out of 'The Matrix' are out of place, but police surveillance drones with profiling software that call in heavily armed tactical units would be perfect. We're probably not that far from that happening in real life.

[Rakzo]

I dunno. I like it when Ollie is preachy, because that's the kind of flawed that he is. Granted, I am still thinking of him as the dude who kicked out Roy Harper for using drugs, as opposed

The problem with the white saviour trope is that it casts a single white person in the role of the lone individual who can come in to solve a problem that's completely overwhelming a group of people of colour. It's condescending to an obnoxious degree, and portrays the white saviour character as being the only one with any power of agency.

Oliver should absolutely be standing up for the marginalized and underprivileged, "looking out for the little guy" as he says repeatedly in that JLU episode where he joins the Justice League. He just needs to do so in such a way that he's working with those people. It's one of the reasons Green Arrow generally works better when he's not rich. At least, depictions of Green Arrow where he skews towards being more concerned with issues of social justice.

I personally don't really like when Ollie is being preachy because it makes him look completely unlikable and a total hypocrite (just like most people who act preachy). I would prefer if he was portrayed in a way that he looked the world in a balanced way from every point of view.

I would agree that Oliver needs to work along with people and not really telling them what they should do though, that's the ideal.

However, I have to disagree with the premise of "Green Arrow works better when he's not rich" since the fact about him learning to care for the common man only when he lost his fortune paints him as just a double-face asshole. Oliver can still care for the common man if he's rich, especially if he's rich actually, that's the point of philanthropy.

Drones as killer robots straight out of 'The Matrix' are out of place, but police surveillance drones with profiling software that call in heavily armed tactical units would be perfect. We're probably not that far from that happening in real life.

I don't know, I always prefer to see the human side from everyone instead of just forcing a theme.

[kivatt]

It's weird but I want this book to be serious and lighthearted at the same time. I don't know how to put it into words. I want it to deal with real issues, while being good, while maintaining its comicbooky nature, but without feeling like it's being shoved down my throat at the same time.

Also I would love to see an interaction between Emiko and Damian.

[Rakzo]

I've said it before and I will say it again (forever): The ideal for Green Arrow is a combination of different genres and styles.

It can flip from lighthearted to serious, from realistic to crazy, from emotional to humourous, etc. I think one of the the biggest problems with the current run is that it tries to mix several things at the same time (social justice, sci-fi) but lacks the kind of self-awareness that such scenario requires, it not only takes itself too seriously, it also THINKS that is smarter than it actually is.

The narration is unrealistic and pompous, the themes are blunt and in-your-face, the story is erratic and unsatisfying and yet, this run wants to make people believe that is saying something important!

Social issues can be implemented. My biggest complaints about those stories is that they can become pretty awful pretty easy (the title in question is a clear proof of that). However, the most recent Action Comics story has taught me that it can work as long as you have the proper skill and treat it with the respect that needs to.