In Defense of Seeley, King and NIGHTWING #30

[Dzetoun]

I have been as harsh as anyone when it comes to Nightwing #30 and its creative team. I stand by all the criticisms I have made in various threads. However, I have noticed over the past forty-eight hours that there has been a vast pile-on from the forums to tumbler to review aggregators to twitter. In fact, it's gotten so bad that Tim Seeley has started to ask people on twitter to just back off, already. In fairness to the book and its creators, I think some defense needs to be made of the book and its creative team. I am going to look at this in two parts, Strengths of the Book and Challenges faced by the Creative Team.

Strengths of the Book

1) The general consensus seems to be that sections one and three were very good. Section one provided a good refresher on Spyral, while the third section launched Dick Grayson into his new adventures.

2) Although section two has proved problematic, to say the least, Seeley and King have responded to some of the criticisms on twitter. I may be misinterpreting what they have said and be reading too much into 140-character posts. However, they seem to be saying that Bruce's all-out fight with Dick was meant, in part, as rehabilitation and therapy. That is also where the "brotherly" aspect comes in. Bruce believes that Dick is much more powerful than Dick realizes, and that his "little brother" needs to be pushed to fight so he will see his own power, which is great enough to beat Batman, of all people, into submission. I won't get into the question of the execution of that theme, or other problems with the section, but it is a good and worthy theme. As I say, I may be misinterpreting what Seeley and King are saying, but that is my take on it at the moment. I will say that theme is in keeping with threads that go back into the old DCU, where Bruce's attitude toward Dick often seemed to be one of intense frustration precisely because he believed Dick could be the greatest of the Bats, if only he would believe in and exert his own strength.

Challenges faced by the Creative Team

1) Based on Hetrick's art, it seems the decision had already been made that Dick was going to remain dead to the Bat family. That was not Seeley and King's call, and all the problems with it, including how you justify it given the events of Forever Evil, were thrust on them.

2) They were faced with the problem that Forever Evil created an absolute no-win situation for them in terms of the Bruce/Dick relationship. The warmth and strength of that bond was about the only positive character development to emerge from Forever Evil for Dick. However, the decision had already been made that Dick was going to fake his death, creating pain for the Bat Family. If he did so willingly in cooperation with Bruce, the pattern of weakness created in Forever Evil would persist and be intensified. If he resisted, creating tension and damaging his relationship with Bruce, it would seem as if the writers were defecating squarely on the one good aspect of the whole event for Dick's character. I am not going to get into the actual execution of what occurred, but I will point out that even had it been handled much better the writers would still have been in a no-win situation.

3) They were also damaged when DC made the poor decision not to release a version of Tynion and Hetrick's issue as a requiem for Nightwing. This is, frankly, a ludicrously bad decision on DC's part from both a narrative and business standpoint, and it set Seeley and King up for failure as the numbering of the issue and the wording of its solicit led people to have expectations that were dashed to disappointment and anger.

So, that is my defense. Like I say, I stand by all my criticisms, and agree with many more that other people have made. But the dogpile has reached the point that I'm starting to feel a little defensive of the creatives, especially as they seem to be getting the message that people aren't happy.

[oasis1313]

DC makes ludicrously bad decisions? Dear one, you are a master of understatement.

[AlexanderLuthor]

I think the criticism has really picked up steam once the Tynion and Hetrick pages saw the light of day. We have no way of knowing if DC could have stopped that - does Hetrick's contract all her to do as she wishes with books that were shelved w/o DC's input for instance - but, if there was a way for DC to stop it (by buying the pages from her directly or otherwise) then they should have. It is never a good idea for a company to have images circulating of a book that was never sold and put into continuity. All in all, I think this whole thing really doesn't matter in the long run. If Grayson is good, and I have high hopes, then this will all be forgotten soon enough.

One thing I'll add...if what we hear is true - that Seeley wrote parts 1 and 3 and King did Part 2 then that is puzzling to me. King seems to be far more involved than I would have expected. To the best of my knowledge King has never written anything, while Seeley is a long time comic veteran. I originally thought that King was being brought in as an advisor to help Seeley with aspects of the spy world, but it seems that he has been given a much larger role than that (I've heard that he is writing Grayson #3 and #4). Maybe that was the only way he would sign on, but given what we saw on Nightwing #30, there was obviously a professional writer who has earned his chops on 2 parts, and then some fan fiction in the middle. It may have been a better idea to let King get his feet wet a little more slowly

[JasonTodd428]

I agree with all you've said there Dzetoun.

I'll grant it was a ludicrously bad decision not to have some kind of a requiem issue for Nightwing and Nightwing #30 should have been just that. (They could have released it as soon as the last issue of FE hit the stands or soon after and then had Seeley and King do a Grayson #0 issue this month.) However having just recently gone through the fiasco that was Tynion's run on RHatO and remembering his comment about Nightwing I'm very glad we'll never get his issue #30 and I can't seem to fault them for that. Just my two cents.

[Conway]

DC makes ludicrously bad decisions? Dear one, you are a master of understatement.

I think some of the "dogpile" isn't about the issue, but about the further belittling of Dick in the DCU.

This issue did some very good and necessary things. The fight that everyone mentions did a good job of killing Nightwing and Dick's past. It also did a good job of making it appear to Alfred that Bruce was having strong emotions about the "loss" of Dick. It helps sell the lie to the rest of the Bat-Fam. The dialogue was atrocious, but I didn't view the scene as being about the dialogue. I personally was not a big fan of the first part, it seemed mostly unnecessary, but I can see how some people found it enjoyable.

I think the problem stems from what Dzetoun described as a ludicrously bad decision. The world and the Bat-Fam are under the impression that Dick/Nightwing is in fact dead, this issue does nothing to address that. He is the symbol of the resistance, and all of the people killed by the Crime Syndicate. He is also the evidence that Bruce is Batman, and Tim is Red Robin. Nobody but the Bat-Fam and R'as even know that Damian was killed, but he got tributes. The entire world knows Dick died. He deserves no less than a public funeral with JL. It is also the only way to address the issue of Batman's secret identity.

[ABH]

Yeah, there were certainly some poor choices, here and there, and an obvious rush job to get the actual Nightwing #30 book out, but I'm still very much looking forward to what Seeley, King and Janin have in store for us.

[JasonTodd428]

Yeah, there were certainly some poor choices, here and there, and an obvious rush job to get the actual Nightwing #30 book out, but I'm still very much looking forward to what Seeley, King and Janin have in store for us.

A lot of poor choices in my opinion but I'm still looking forward to Grayson. I can't wait to see what they've got planned.

[AlexanderLuthor]

One thing I don't understand is the rush job on Nightwing #30. Due to the massive delay on Forever Evil, the issue was pushed back as well. Now obviously they completely changed their mind on what to do with Grayson, probably causing the FE delay as they redid the last part of the book, but why did Nightwing have to come out the same week? With Grayson not debuting until July they could have run this issue anytime between now and then giving them almost another whole month of time to work out the kinks. I would have maybe liked to see them do the book in 4 parts, adding the Tynion and Hetrick funeral as part 3

[Andrew Eldritch]

I talked with Tim Seeley on twitter and he told me that the original version was not used because the editors thought it had a mood very similar to issue 29 and they wanted something with a feeling of a new beginning for Dick Grayson, although everybody thought the script and art were very good.

[timseeley]

I appreciate the defense. And, well... the criticism as well.
This certainly has been the most...diverse and passionate set of opinions I've ever received on something I've worked on (as evidenced by the Roundup, not everyone hated it. Mostly just CBR forums and the Newsarama review dudes: http://comicbookroundup.com/comic-bo...-%282011%29/30). But, it's clear that expectations and execution combined to make a big response to the issue.
In any case, thank you for the responses, positive and negative. Nightwing 29 is the real END of the series, and NIGHTWING 30 is indeed the beginning of a GRAYSON. I'm incredibly proud of the Grayson scripts I've written, and I think the creative team, has grown together to make something really cool and unique.
Sincerely, TIM

[LoneNecromancer]

I appreciate the defense. And, well... the criticism as well.
This certainly has been the most...diverse and passionate set of opinions I've ever received on something I've worked on (as evidenced by the Roundup, not everyone hated it. Mostly just CBR forums and the Newsarama review dudes: http://comicbookroundup.com/comic-bo...-%282011%29/30). But, it's clear that expectations and execution combined to make a big response to the issue.
In any case, thank you for the responses, positive and negative. Nightwing 29 is the real END of the series, and NIGHTWING 30 is indeed the beginning of a GRAYSON. I'm incredibly proud of the Grayson scripts I've written, and I think the creative team, has grown together to make something really cool and unique.
Sincerely, TIM

Nice to see you here Tim. I've enjoyed the prompts you've taken from the Morrison Batman run in your work in the Batbooks thus far and am looking forward to Grayson.

[ABH]

Glad to have you here, Tim. I hope you won't let the criticisms keep you away from CBR, because I'm sure that Grayson will continue to be a big deal (if a bit divisive), and it would be great to get more input from you.

For me, everything you and King have said in interviews so far, have been right on the money. So for that, I'm very excited.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Consider me really excited for Grayson I haven't seen all the criticsim about Nightwing 30 but the only thing it bugged me was Batman's choice to keep Dick hidden from the rest of the family, the fight was really great since is the natural course for Dick's character. He agrees with Bruce but that doesn't means he approves his choices, that fight was a mean to vent all the lingering issues between them and is an interesting contrast with Jason's since they've grown apart over the years that they only need acknowledgment of the other to move forward. Grayson on the other hand? He's so emotionally invested on Bruce and everything he represents that they can't just talk things put, their connection is way more deep than that.

With that in mind I'm really baffled about all the praise for Tynion's and Hetrick's pages. The art is fantastic (outside of some derpy faces here an there) but the scenes weaken the characters current directions, it doesn't work on the N52 context and in some cases, it kind of 'break' their personalities (Kory and Roy). It would've been a great issue on the old DCU, but now is just fan pandering at its finest.

[Andrew Eldritch]

With that in mind I'm really baffled about all the praise for Tynion's and Hetrick's pages. The art is fantastic (outside of some derpy faces here an there) but the scenes weaken the characters current directions, it doesn't work on the N52 context and in some cases, it kind of 'break' their personalities (Kory and Roy). It would've been a great issue on the old DCU, but now is just fan pandering at its finest.

I couldn't have said it better, sir!

[Conway]

With that in mind I'm really baffled about all the praise for Tynion's and Hetrick's pages. The art is fantastic (outside of some derpy faces here an there) but the scenes weaken the characters current directions, it doesn't work on the N52 context and in some cases, it kind of 'break' their personalities (Kory and Roy). It would've been a great issue on the old DCU, but now is just fan pandering at its finest.

While I understand what you're saying, it also shows that some people are focusing on the wrong parts. Sure we have no indication Tim is close to Dick at all, and the Starfire scene feels forced, but those aren't the important parts of the book. The scene with Gordon and Bullock was important. The scene where Babs takes out her anger on Jason is important (although it would have worked better with Bruce). The scene with JL paying tribute to him (even though they know he's alive) was important. But the most important scene was when the street kid tags Gotham with Nightwing symbols and this is the one scene that could have easily fit into the story they told. It would have worked well to break up the homo-erotic fight that killed Nightwing, and tied the two books together a little better than this did.