In Defense of Seeley, King and NIGHTWING #30

[Neowing]

To be fair the final act was pretty weird. We see Dick fighting villains with normal clothers (Did Dick forget that everyone has seen him live?) Why isn't he wearing a mask to prevent anyone from recognizing him?) without no explaination and then randomly Helena comes out of the shadow and helps dick then gives him a invite. Sure it could be explained in Grayson but......

I appreciate the defense. And, well... the criticism as well.
This certainly has been the most...diverse and passionate set of opinions I've ever received on something I've worked on (as evidenced by the Roundup, not everyone hated it. Mostly just CBR forums and the Newsarama review dudes: http://comicbookroundup.com/comic-bo...-%282011%29/30). But, it's clear that expectations and execution combined to make a big response to the issue.
In any case, thank you for the responses, positive and negative. Nightwing 29 is the real END of the series, and NIGHTWING 30 is indeed the beginning of a GRAYSON. I'm incredibly proud of the Grayson scripts I've written, and I think the creative team, has grown together to make something really cool and unique.
Sincerely, TIM

Please stay true to the character, make the book good and Dick shine. Lastly be creative and smart about this new direction. Good luck!

[ReverseReverseFlash]

Nightwing #30 was fine. It was rushed, yes, but it told the story it needed to.

Creators are kind of enough to call this sort of bizarre fan obsession "passionate". That's not what I call it.

Tim Seeley doesn't owe anyone an apology or anything.

[oasis1313]

Right. Thing is, he died. He's a big deal. He should get a funeral. But Tim, Roy, Kory and the Justice League ain't got nothing to do with New Earth Nightwing. I don't particularly like the new Nightwing but nevertheless, a funeral issue should be about the people he was close to. His supporting cast in Chicago. Sonia Branch, the survivors of Haly's Circus. If they are relying on Tim, Roy and Kory for feels without any build up whatsoever anyways in other words, people much more associated with old continuity Nightwing, I don't see why we shouldn't be moving back towards the old Nightwing.

A big problem Dick is having is that he ISN'T a big deal in the New DC. He has no associations, all his past has been taken away from him and given to characters more favored by Editorial, even Bruce doesn't give diddly-squat about him. He's used to be a brain--now he's a bimbo so that Tim can look smarter--Tim has also been given his leadership abilities and gymnastic skills. Jason has been awarded (for better or worse) his friends and lovers. The list could go on further, even. Dick is presently like a used car in a scrapyard--he's nothing but spare parts to be stripped for Didio's more favored characters. I don't see how he can be moved to an A-list status when he's not even in the alphabet anymore (he's below a Z-lister now). It will be a huge challenge for Seeley and Co to make him shine, and I am literally praying that they can make lemonade out of this rotten lemon of a situation.

[Neowing]

R.I.P Nightwing!

[Dzetoun]

Nightwing #30 was fine. It was rushed, yes, but it told the story it needed to.

Creators are kind of enough to call this sort of bizarre fan obsession "passionate". That's not what I call it.

Tim Seeley doesn't owe anyone an apology or anything.

No, he does not "owe" anyone an apology, and "passion" can very quickly go to extremes. Thus the need to defend creatives when criticism becomes an unfair dogpile. On the other hand, no comics buyer "owes" the creative team money or support, either, nor does anyone "owe" them silence when they do something that a given party or parties finds unpleasing. It's probably best to think of this as a business situation, albeit once which, like professional sports, inevitably becomes fraught with a large amount of emotion. Creators have a product to offer, and customers give them feedback as to how that product should be extended or trimmed or modified in order to keep the money flowing.

And of course that is what is going to tell the tale at the end of the day, isn't it? If issues are sold and money flows, nothing anybody says or writes will matter. And issues will definitely sell for a while, at least through Grayson #2 and probably through the first arc. The only thing anybody can say with regard to the link between criticism and success is that comics that are consistently heavily criticized and poorly reviewed don't tend to sell very well over the long haul. Unfortunately, the mirror is not the case, and many highly-praised and well-reviewed books sell very poorly. But, hopefully, once things settle down Grayson will be both high selling and highly praised. I am sure that is what everyone connected with the book wants.

[byrd156]

R.I.P Nightwing!

Noooooooooo

[ABH]

To be fair the final act was pretty weird. We see Dick fighting villains with normal clothers (Did Dick forget that everyone has seen him live?) Why isn't he wearing a mask to prevent anyone from recognizing him?) without no explaination and then randomly Helena comes out of the shadow and helps dick then gives him a invite. Sure it could be explained in Grayson but......

It wasn't that random -- Dick was targeting the same people that Helena was fighting at the beginning of the book. "Cain" is the key.

[Dzetoun]

I agree 110% that he's a big deal and deserves a funeral issue or issues. I love love love nightwing and the whole Grayson thing is a big deal ! It p*$$es me off we didn't get all the other characters reactions to Dick's sacrifice. It would make his decision and mission carry more weight. And I like most people feel cheated we didn't get them.

But that being said, I imagine the creative team itself wanted an funeral issue or issues. But is seems for whatever reason DC itself is rushing everything and the whole timeline for the whole Grayson thing is messed up. Something weird behind the scenes seems to be going on ever since forever evil started and I think most people agree that Dicks fate has been changed multiple times. I put that on DC, not the creative team who probably is just trying to handle the cards they've been dealt.

That's my take on it and I don't pretend to know what's going on behind the scenes. Just trying to stay positive about what going on!

Yes, things do seem to be rushed, don't they? I won't speculate on the behind-the-scenes events, except that, since DC is full of human beings, I suspect that office intrigue exists in spades same as everywhere else. If is even possible that professional rivalries and office politics played a role in Hetrick releasing the images when she did. Then again, maybe not. As you say, best just to stay as positive as possible without surrendering one's critical faculties.

What we can say from events "within" the DCnU is that a Crisis appears to be coming. It would seem that it is going to hit in April and probably extend through the summer of 2015, with September's issues being a good chance for all the titles to review their status coming out of whatever the event is. If they are operating on a Crisis countdown, they may be scrambling to get all the characters where they need to be before April. Also, it is widely speculated that the first "uber-arc" of Grayson will culminate with that title intersecting Batman Eternal just before the Crisis arrives, so once again making it imperative that everybody stick to the timetable.

[Godlike13]

To be fair the final act was pretty weird. We see Dick fighting villains with normal clothers (Did Dick forget that everyone has seen him live?) Why isn't he wearing a mask to prevent anyone from recognizing him?) without no explaination and then randomly Helena comes out of the shadow and helps dick then gives him a invite. Sure it could be explained in Grayson but......

It wasn't that random -- Dick was targeting the same people that Helena was fighting at the beginning of the book. "Cain" is the key.

Ya, Dick was trying to get Spyrl's attention. Thats what he was doing in the final act.

[AlexanderLuthor]

Yes, things do seem to be rushed, don't they? I won't speculate on the behind-the-scenes events, except that, since DC is full of human beings, I suspect that office intrigue exists in spades same as everywhere else. If is even possible that professional rivalries and office politics played a role in Hetrick releasing the images when she did. Then again, maybe not. As you say, best just to stay as positive as possible without surrendering one's critical faculties.

What we can say from events "within" the DCnU is that a Crisis appears to be coming. It would seem that it is going to hit in April and probably extend through the summer of 2015, with September's issues being a good chance for all the titles to review their status coming out of whatever the event is. If they are operating on a Crisis countdown, they may be scrambling to get all the characters where they need to be before April. Also, it is widely speculated that the first "uber-arc" of Grayson will culminate with that title intersecting Batman Eternal just before the Crisis arrives, so once again making it imperative that everybody stick to the timetable.

The point you make about the looming Crisis event is why I'm so excited about the new direction for the character. If he had stayed Nightwing then he would have had a tie-in issue or two playing small ball in Chicago while Batman and the JL did the heavy lifting. Now it's possible that he'll be "leading" a team of Spyral agents combating what is going on...a far more prominent role and not a redundant one

[ReverseReverseFlash]

A big problem Dick is having is that he ISN'T a big deal in the New DC. He has no associations, all his past has been taken away from him and given to characters more favored by Editorial, even Bruce doesn't give diddly-squat about him. He's used to be a brain--now he's a bimbo so that Tim can look smarter--Tim has also been given his leadership abilities and gymnastic skills. Jason has been awarded (for better or worse) his friends and lovers. The list could go on further, even. Dick is presently like a used car in a scrapyard--he's nothing but spare parts to be stripped for Didio's more favored characters. I don't see how he can be moved to an A-list status when he's not even in the alphabet anymore (he's below a Z-lister now). It will be a huge challenge for Seeley and Co to make him shine, and I am literally praying that they can make lemonade out of this rotten lemon of a situation.

I see you repeating this over and over. It's become your narrative the past few weeks.

It's just in your head, man. You're assuming everything about him is different when DC has done nothing but stress that his history is intact, with the origins slightly changed(as it has done many times before the New 52).

Dick's relationship with everyone is still there. Roy says so, Starfire says so. Barbara constantly speaks fondly of him. He was the big brother to a sidekick family, shown repeatedly having trained Jason, Tim, and Damian, and also having led a team-up with Arsenal and Starfire. They've shown you snippets that tell you his history is there, there's just NO reason to dwell on it and recap it constantly in a rebooted book.

Nightwing has been treated well by DC. Try being a Milestone, Wildstorm, Blue Beetle, Static Shock, etc fan.

Grayson has just been given a second hyped book by DC in three years. He's doing fine. He's been doing fine for 30 years.

[Neowing]

It wasn't that random -- Dick was targeting the same people that Helena was fighting at the beginning of the book. "Cain" is the key.

How does he know that those people are Helena's enemy? In fact how does he know that Spyral is hunting them down? It looked like Dick was just fighting random generic thugs and boom Helena saves him. That's my grip

[Conway]

I see you repeating this over and over. It's become your narrative the past few weeks.

It's just in your head, man. You're assuming everything about him is different when DC has done nothing but stress that his history is intact, with the origins slightly changed(as it has done many times before the New 52).

Dick's relationship with everyone is still there. Roy says so, Starfire says so. Barbara constantly speaks fondly of him. He was the big brother to a sidekick family, shown repeatedly having trained Jason, Tim, and Damian, and also having led a team-up with Arsenal and Starfire. They've shown you snippets that tell you his history is there, there's just NO reason to dwell on it and recap it constantly in a rebooted book.

Nightwing has been treated well by DC. Try being a Milestone, Wildstorm, Blue Beetle, Static Shock, etc fan.

Grayson has just been given a second hyped book by DC in three years. He's doing fine. He's been doing fine for 30 years.

I agree that it's becoming a bit of an echo chamber about this, but his history isn't intact. Bludhaven doesn't exist in the New 52. Tim founded the Teen Titans, and despite Lobdell mentioning relationships with Roy and Kory, nobody else has mentioned it. The real key is that he never led a team, most people in the New 52 have never met him. Nobody in the JL really knows who he is. He was never a cop. I'm sure there are other things I'm forgetting.

As I've said the issue was good. The creators (well Seeley) have nothing to be ashamed of. DC editorial does, but they make enough that I'm sure they could care less. WB on the other hand should be a little upset that DC missed this obvious opportunity to make a lot of money off of Nightwing's death.

As for Milestone characters, they aren't 74 years old and one of the most recognizable names in comic books. Dick Grayson is the top 10 if not the top 5 on any list of most recognizable Super-heroes.

[Conway]

How does he know that those people are Helena's enemy? In fact how does he know that Spyral is hunting them down? It looked like Dick was just fighting random generic thugs and boom Helena saves him. That's my grip

That is who Helena and SPYRAL saved Leslie from in the beginning and Leslie told Batman the entire story, at least the parts she remembered. Are you sure you read the issue?

[ABH]

That is who Helena and SPYRAL saved Leslie from in the beginning and Leslie told Batman the entire story, at least the parts she remembered. Are you sure you read the issue?

Yep. All the people Grayson was targeting had "CAIN" tattooed on their knuckles. (Admittedly, the only connection I see to part 1 of the story is that one of those goons had a helmet that had "KAIN" on it -- I'm not sure if that was a mistake, or intentional, but I still assumed the connection)

Besides, it's Batman's plan for Grayson to infiltrate Spyral, so he knows exactly who to target (to get Spyral's attention), even if we didn't have that "CAIN" visual.