Has the Fox film harmed the Fantastic Four comic?

[Of Atlantis]

I didn't say for one book.
But the reason that comic readers are paying more mind to Avengers as a whole is not because of the movies. It predates the movies and started when Bendis launched New Avengers, and really exploded with Civil War and Secret Invasion.

I misinterpreted, but even for more than one book, 3%, if even for a month on multiple books adds up to a profit regardless. And we both know 3% for one month is an understatement. I doubt a book like Rage of Ultron would've sold as well without Avengers 2 fresh in everyone's mind.

I definitely think the movies do at least keep Avengers in mind among comic readers. It's impossible not to and for better or worse, Marvel thinks that as well. People are subconsciously influenced to buy stuff all the time. You could credit Bendis for making the Avengers more popular again, but it was a different day and age. Adding Wolverine and Spider-man won't sell books like it used to. Heroes vs. heroes are played out. Killing characters doesn't make headlines anymore. Mediocre events don't sell as well (Axis). Just look at who was involved in Infinity and you can understand why it sold so well. Thanos, Avengers, GotG. Familiar properties among comic fans and casuals.

EVERYTHING was selling undeniably better than it is now. Except DC, which haven't really done much in the way of films beyoond Bats and Supes.

In relation to other titles and compared to where they are now, FF was still selling much better.

Sells better than some, worse than many... It's not an A-list property in terms of comics sales and hasn't been probably since John Byrne was on it.

I agree, but it's not D list either, though it was heading there fast and the bad reputation of the movie doesn't exactly help that. Although it's arguable how a potentially good movie would've affected it, we can all agree it did no favours.

On the other hand, one might say that putting out a really good FF book by their best creators would be excellent damage control.
Of course, Millar and Hitch coming fresh off Ultimates 2 couldn't make the FF into a bestseller.

One could, but it only really matters if people bother to give it a chance. And with the horrors of the movie fresh in everyone's minds, how likely is that? Even among comic readers. It's more of a hook at the moment to see the team join and interact with those outside the FF for now. It might put them on a road to recovering their reputations.

[Carabas]

I misinterpreted, but even for more than one book, 3%, if even for a month on multiple books adds up to a profit regardless. And we both know 3% for one month is an understatement. I doubt a book like Rage of Ultron would've sold as well without Avengers 2 fresh in everyone's mind.

I don't know... I'ts an Avengers book, which would be popular regardles of movies. By Rick Remender who for whatever reason seems to be fairly popular, and he's never been anywhere near a movie.

I definitely think the movies do at least keep Avengers in mind among comic readers.

How do you explain the Avengers being in the mind of comicbook readers even before the movies?
And are you sure the Avengers being central to pretty much everything that happens in the MU doesn't have a whole lot more to do with them being in the minds of the readers than the damn movie?

In relation to other titles and compared to where they are now, FF was still selling much better.

I am going to need to see some numbers on that.

I agree, but it's not D list either, though it was heading there fast and the bad reputation of the movie doesn't exactly help that. Although it's arguable how a potentially good movie would've affected it, we can all agree it did no favours.

What's really hurting the FF is their legal situation and Ike Perlmutter being a bit of a cantankerous loon at times, who doesn't shy away from cutting of his nose to spite his face.

[Iron Maiden]

Sells better than some, worse than many... It's not an A-list property in terms of comics sales and hasn't been probably since John Byrne was on it.


On the other hand, one might say that putting out a really good FF book by their best creators would be excellent damage control.
Of course, Millar and Hitch coming fresh off Ultimates 2 couldn't make the FF into a bestseller.

The Fantastic Four may not be A list anymore but it certainly has been a mainstay on the sales chart for decades. Sean Kleefled, uber FF fan whose even had credits on Marvel publications for providing materials,etc. had put together a historical sales chart.

A lot can depend on the creative team involved. The X-Men got a big boost in popularity in the 1990s that can in part be contributable to Jim Lee. Jim Lee was also on the first 4 or 5 issues on Heroes Reborn: Fantastic Four and the title got a sales boost and hit #1 again. But even after the relaunch to Heroes Return, it was always a steady seller, frequently in the top 20.

As for Millar/Hitch, you can typically tell when a creative team doesn't meet fans' expectations. The title will always get a big bump with the first issue and then it either holds steady or goes into a decline. Millar and Hitch didn't even finish their Master of Doom story, which was pretty unspectacular, and left it to others to complete. The numbers had gone down too. I am working on a sales chart of my own using Comic Chronicles charts but you can check them out over there month by month, year by year. If you have older issues before the direct market, they were always posted once a year in the comics themselves.

Fraction started out big but started bleeding readers over the course of the run. Hickman's run was able to support two FF titles with a good sales figures, nothing spectacular unless you count the death bag issue. But once again it was at least a top 40 title. Marvel is happy to publish something that stays at that level.

[DebkoX]

I am sure my comments will be disputed but, I don't find the F4 that interesting....

[AcesX1X]

while the picture is pretty, to be truly relevant, you'd need to cross-reference it with a matrix of all the other marvel titles to show its performance against those as well. we all know that comics industry themselves have taken a major downturn and nothing produces the same results as it did even five years ago.

[Of Atlantis]

I don't know... I'ts an Avengers book, which would be popular regardles of movies. By Rick Remender who for whatever reason seems to be fairly popular, and he's never been anywhere near a movie.

Probably, but not as popular. There was a reason it was released alongside the movie, and although I don't agree with creative changes made to the characters in order to sync the comics and movies, I can't fault them for releasing a story about Ultron while the hype for the movie was at its highest. And I don't fault them for reprinting and collecting a bunch of Ultron stories at the time either, seeing how they sold.

How do you explain the Avengers being in the mind of comicbook readers even before the movies?
And are you sure the Avengers being central to pretty much everything that happens in the MU doesn't have a whole lot more to do with them being in the minds of the readers than the damn movie?

Obviously, they had different tactics working for them at the time. Like I said, Spider-man and Wolverine joining the Avengers was a big thing, Death of Captain America, the influx of constant events comics etc.

It may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone reads Avengers, and not everyone reads the solos of the characters who are on the Avengers either. The movies may have been an outlet for many comic readers to want to explore them, whether it be through old stories or current ones.

Similarly, in Fantastic Four's case, the movie likely deterred many of those who already buy comics to explore these characters further. And even if not, it certainly didn't help get anyone more interested in them.

I am going to need to see some numbers on that.

I'd love to give you numbers on that. You can even do more research yourself. Fantastic Four only started really lagging behind around 2010 as other titles began overtaking their position on the charts.

Fantastic Four #645 (March 2015) is #62 on the list with just under 40k in sales (given a boost from the previous month's 32k because it was the final issue I believe). You can see it's still selling much higher than many titles. 32k is nowhere near the cancellation line, which is roughly 20k btw

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...5/2015-04.html

#556 {April 2008) is #27 on the list with 65k in sales

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2008-04.html

#54 (March 2002) is #19 with 48k in sales

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...2/2002-03.html

It's clearly post 2010 where the Fantastic Four started to fall off, making its way down the charts. #19....#27...#65 when compared to other titles.

[Iron Maiden]

I think another thing you have to factor in is if the title was tied in to an event. For example, you see a spike in the FF titles that were tied into Civil War. Also, when there is a big event it can also take away sales from a title and you will see a drop in sales. But then they will come back up again when it's over.

[Iron Maiden]

while the picture is pretty, to be truly relevant, you'd need to cross-reference it with a matrix of all the other marvel titles to show its performance against those as well. we all know that comics industry themselves have taken a major downturn and nothing produces the same results as it did even five years ago.

Well there's a homework assignment for you then. I am just showing FF sales but you can go back to the charts online at Comic Chronicles to find out if you are that interested.

[dragonmp93]

Well, of course that the readers are going to keep the Avengers in their minds, it's hard to get something out of your head when it shows up even in the soup after all.

[PhantomStranger]

Where were you back when the first X-Men and Spider-Man films started to come out? We had tie-ins up the wazoo. The Ultimate Universe was practially set up to cater to the new (non-existant) audience.

But there is no effort to market TO that audience. There ought to be a "Like the movie? You'll LOVE the comic!" ad ON SCREEN before every Marvel movie with an ad card for the LCS, Marvel's on-line ordering site, etc. Like/Love posters in the theater lobby. PUSH the comics themselves as an entertainment venue.

They won't do it. It's the most natural ad campaign ever and they won't do it.

[cyberhubbs]

But there is no effort to market TO that audience. There ought to be a "Like the movie? You'll LOVE the comic!" ad ON SCREEN before every Marvel movie with an ad card for the LCS, Marvel's on-line ordering site, etc. Like/Love posters in the theater lobby. PUSH the comics themselves as an entertainment venue.

They won't do it. It's the most natural ad campaign ever and they won't do it.

There's usually a reason since companies rarely miss a chance to advertise their product.

[Carabas]

But there is no effort to market TO that audience. There ought to be a "Like the movie? You'll LOVE the comic!" ad ON SCREEN before every Marvel movie with an ad card for the LCS, Marvel's on-line ordering site, etc. Like/Love posters in the theater lobby. PUSH the comics themselves as an entertainment venue.

It'd be pointles because of the direct market ghetto. There is no supply. No venues to send potential new customers to. LCSs are utterly useles. They're fat too rare, for starters.
Comicbooks in America are not a mass market medium like books or DVDs. They're a specialty item only available in very select shops.

And that's without taking into consideration that any really new customer attracted by the Avengers movie who does end up in LCS is going to see multiple Avengers books, multiple Avenegrs trades, multiple volumes of different runs of the same title, and so and. and run screaming for the hills.

This is why for instance limited properties made into movies (like Watchmen or Sin City) did move a lot of comics, whereas regular superheroes do not (except Batman, but only for stuff like The Dark Knight Returns and Year One, not the ongoing titles).

[cyberhubbs]

And the last thing you wanna have to do is talk to someone at an LCS. No one wants to admit they may need help getting into a hobby.

But in either case, you can still find comic books at bookstores, especially in trades, and of course in digital format. There's like a million new ways to get into comic books.

[PhantomStranger]

It'd be pointles because of the direct market ghetto. There is no supply. No venues to send potential new customers to. LCSs are utterly useles. They're fat too rare, for starters.
Comicbooks in America are not a mass market medium like books or DVDs. They're a specialty item only available in very select shops.

There is at least one LCS somewhere within a reasonable travel time in most major regions. For other places, there are online stores for either physical or digital delivery.

There is no "barrier to entry", other than Marvel's unwillingness to open the door and turn on the "Open" sign.

And that's without taking into consideration that any really new customer attracted by the Avengers movie who does end up in LCS is going to see multiple Avengers books, multiple Avenegrs trades, multiple volumes of different runs of the same title, and so and. and run screaming for the hills.

Ah yes, the "simpleton newcomer" non-argument. People are smart. They can figure these things out. We did after all.

This is why for instance limited properties made into movies (like Watchmen or Sin City) did move a lot of comics, whereas regular superheroes do not (except Batman, but only for stuff like The Dark Knight Returns and Year One, not the ongoing titles).

Since no one is marketing the mainline books to a mass audience, that is no surprise.

There's usually a reason since companies rarely miss a chance to advertise their product.

And that reason is utter stupidity on the part of the Marketing execs, as Paul Dini found out.

http://io9.com/paul-dini-superhero-c...y-f-1483758317

[Carabas]

There is at least one LCS somewhere within a reasonable travel time in most major regions.

Mainstream audiences do not consider "somewher in another city" to be reasonable.

For other places, there are online stores for either physical or digital delivery.

Again, a barrier. A new costumer is less likely to buy a comic he or she hasn't even flipped through online. Kinda requires the faith and devotion of a fan.

There is no "barrier to entry", other than Marvel's unwillingness to open the door and turn on the "Open" sign.

No, there are huge, massive ones.

Ah yes, the "simpleton newcomer" non-argument. People are smart. They can figure these things out. We did after all.

They can't even keep veteran readers.
People are by the way not smart. And when we got into this, the situation was a lot simpler.
They're new readers. They're not really interested in reading comics (or they already would have been).

Nevermind that there is tons of anecdotal evidence from retailers to back up the "simpleton newcomernon-argument".

Also, you tell a non-comicbook reader that 20 pages (with anotehr 10 pages of ads- costs $4, he's just going to laugh in your face and walk away.

Since no one is marketing the mainline books to a mass audience, that is no surprise.

DC ran television ads for The New 52. Didn't work.

And that reason is utter stupidity on the part of the Marketing execs, as Paul Dini found out.

http://io9.com/paul-dini-superhero-c...y-f-1483758317

Completely different problem, and nothing to do with comics at all.

See, from the corporation's pointof view, the cartoon isn't the product. The action figures and other merchandising (aimed at boys) is the product.
And if the cartoon draws a primarily female audience which doesn't buy your merchandising, you have a bad cartoon.
Whereas sane people would simply start making merchandising aimed at a female audience...