Secret Wars #5 Review (w/SPOILERS)

[Josh77]

It's not the lack of action i'm disappointed in, it's the lack of spotlight on OTHER characters too.
Doom's taking up 80% of it in the main book. It's not so bad if it was a Doctor Doom: Secret Wars book..which is'nt the case here

I agree completely with this. I was excited for this book not because thought there would be a lot of action but because I thought we'd learn more about where the raftees went and what they are currently doing. I didn't mind the conversation between Doom and MM but I think it could have been cut in half while still conveying the necessary plot points. They could have used the rest of those pages to focus on Reed and the rest.

One of the things I've liked about this event is the creativity given to the writers and artists of the different tie ins. I generally don't care for event tie ins that are too much in the shadow of the main event. I don't want to read about characters on a side mission to destroy an auxiliary base belonging to a 2nd in command villain seen for two panels in the primary event comic. I also don't really care if the continuity for events like this is air tight. All of that being said I do think Secret Wars would have benefitted from having a few core tie ins (5-6) that flesh out the events an ideas of the main series. There are a few minis that are trying to do this but sadly those are some of the worst comics featured in this event. Ultimate End is almost unreadable and Inhumans:Atillan Rising is pretty forgettable. Having some tightly connected minis would make some of the flaws in the main series much more bearable.

[JLS Comics]

Any well structured story is going to have some down time and moments to catch your breath in between the action

[Josh77]

Much to the point that in the the original Secret Wars, you didn't see the Beyonder. He was an out of their world being, far beyond the comprehension of us as he could shape the very universe, a being of few words and no form. An extremely threatening idea.

The Beyonder has gone through how many retcons recently? First he was a being of immense power, then a cosmic cube gained sentience then and Inhuman (weirdly), what is he now? Just a Beyonder? Bit dull that. I prefered the sentient cosmic cube, far more fun.


That's enough of your quips. You know what I mean.

There is another way to think of the Beyonders that I think Hickman has hinted at even in the most recent issue of Secret Wars. The Beyonders are actually meant to represent the creators at Marvel. I posted this theory in another thread but I'm putting it below. (NOTE: I'm sorry for the length. I wanted to connect it through a link but I'm not very tech savvy and I just wasted 20 minutes trying to figure out how to do it without success. New to the boards so I'm sorry if this is bad etiquette.)

Original Post
I don't know if you'd class this as a theory or an interpretation of Secret Wars, but here it goes. I think the Beyonders are supposed to represent the creators of these comics. In NA and SW the Beyonders speak to Doom through a rift in space (like someone breaking the fourth wall). They tell Doom they are "Dreamers. Destroyers. All of reality our whim." That description pretty well fits the writers, artists, editors, etc. that are forever shaping the Marvel Universe. In SW 4 Dr. Strange describes the Beyonders as "some alien, ethereal other thing that perfectly constructed not just the material nature of everything, but the rules that governed it as well." Again, this description perfectly fits the crreators of the MU. Also, Hickman is the type of writer who likes to work a lot of symbolism into his stories. Now, if we assume that this is true then many other parts of this story, and the press surrounding it, begin to take on some additional meaning.

When we first heard about Secret Wars, a lot of people thought Marvel was preparing to do a big reboot. (We now know this is not the case. While the post Secret Wars MU will see some major changes it is definitely not a complete reboot.) In NA 33 the Molecule Man explains how the Beyonders were "conducting their grandest of grand experiments. The simultaneous death of everything in the multiverse." From the perspective of these characters, a complete reboot would serve as such an apocalyptic event. If you want to take this meta reading of the text even further just look at what Owen Reece says next. He asks Doom if he remembers his first encounter with the "child beyonder" which "destroyed a universe in order to construct a play world out of the ashes." This makes sense if you consider that the first secret wars was all about throwing these characters together in order to sell toys. Owen goes on to say that these Beyonders "are its betters, with far more ambitious goals." These ambitious goals would be the reboot.

This is where it gets fun. Of all the characters in the marvel universe it is Doom who will stand against these beyonders/creators who would destroy their universe. Doom defiantly tells the beyonders, "You dared to test us. You dared to toy with us. I dare to throw back in your face." What we have here is a fictional character refusing to be abused and played with by his creators. And who in the MU besides Doom would really have the ego to do something like that? Also, Doom tells us that the Beyonders' only weakness is that they are linear meaning they are unable to travel through time. This is a weird weakness for the supposedly all powerful Beyonders to have. Well, from the perspective of a character existing in this universe, the creators would be all powerful, and, obviously, the creators at Marvel are unable to travel through time.

If you choose to interpret Secret Wars in this way then the series ironically becomes the opposite of what so many people thought Marvel was doing. Not only is Secret Wars not a reboot, it is actually a refutation of that idea. The creators may be trying to reboot the universe but the characters refuse to go along. Consider what Cyclops says in SW 1: "You can't kill an idea. It always comes back. Resurrected. Or reborn...into a different form." That pretty much sums up what is happening to the MU right now. (End of original post)

Now that SW5 is out I think there is further evidence to support this theory. Here is the Molecule Man's description of the Beyonders: "They built whole universes. Random ideas given form. They tested them. They twisted life into every shape possible, they pushed it as far as it could go... And then they got bored with life and started loving the idea of death. Sometimes you've tinkered all you can...and the only thing left to do is to tear it all down and start over."

I'd be interested to hear what everyone else thinks. It could be I am reading too much into what Hickman is doing. However, when you add it all up I think this interpretation is definitely a possibility. Thoughts?

[Josh77]

Any well structured story is going to have some down time and moments to catch your breath in between the action

I agree and taken as a whole I am very much loving this event.

[tulis59]

There is another way to think of the Beyonders that I think Hickman has hinted at even in the most recent issue of Secret Wars. The Beyonders are actually meant to represent the creators at Marvel. I posted this theory in another thread but I'm putting it below. (NOTE: I'm sorry for the length. I wanted to connect it through a link but I'm not very tech savvy and I just wasted 20 minutes trying to figure out how to do it without success. New to the boards so I'm sorry if this is bad etiquette.)

Original Post
I don't know if you'd class this as a theory or an interpretation of Secret Wars, but here it goes. I think the Beyonders are supposed to represent the creators of these comics. In NA and SW the Beyonders speak to Doom through a rift in space (like someone breaking the fourth wall). They tell Doom they are "Dreamers. Destroyers. All of reality our whim." That description pretty well fits the writers, artists, editors, etc. that are forever shaping the Marvel Universe. In SW 4 Dr. Strange describes the Beyonders as "some alien, ethereal other thing that perfectly constructed not just the material nature of everything, but the rules that governed it as well." Again, this description perfectly fits the crreators of the MU. Also, Hickman is the type of writer who likes to work a lot of symbolism into his stories. Now, if we assume that this is true then many other parts of this story, and the press surrounding it, begin to take on some additional meaning.

When we first heard about Secret Wars, a lot of people thought Marvel was preparing to do a big reboot. (We now know this is not the case. While the post Secret Wars MU will see some major changes it is definitely not a complete reboot.) In NA 33 the Molecule Man explains how the Beyonders were "conducting their grandest of grand experiments. The simultaneous death of everything in the multiverse." From the perspective of these characters, a complete reboot would serve as such an apocalyptic event. If you want to take this meta reading of the text even further just look at what Owen Reece says next. He asks Doom if he remembers his first encounter with the "child beyonder" which "destroyed a universe in order to construct a play world out of the ashes." This makes sense if you consider that the first secret wars was all about throwing these characters together in order to sell toys. Owen goes on to say that these Beyonders "are its betters, with far more ambitious goals." These ambitious goals would be the reboot.

This is where it gets fun. Of all the characters in the marvel universe it is Doom who will stand against these beyonders/creators who would destroy their universe. Doom defiantly tells the beyonders, "You dared to test us. You dared to toy with us. I dare to throw back in your face." What we have here is a fictional character refusing to be abused and played with by his creators. And who in the MU besides Doom would really have the ego to do something like that? Also, Doom tells us that the Beyonders' only weakness is that they are linear meaning they are unable to travel through time. This is a weird weakness for the supposedly all powerful Beyonders to have. Well, from the perspective of a character existing in this universe, the creators would be all powerful, and, obviously, the creators at Marvel are unable to travel through time.

If you choose to interpret Secret Wars in this way then the series ironically becomes the opposite of what so many people thought Marvel was doing. Not only is Secret Wars not a reboot, it is actually a refutation of that idea. The creators may be trying to reboot the universe but the characters refuse to go along. Consider what Cyclops says in SW 1: "You can't kill an idea. It always comes back. Resurrected. Or reborn...into a different form." That pretty much sums up what is happening to the MU right now. (End of original post)

Now that SW5 is out I think there is further evidence to support this theory. Here is the Molecule Man's description of the Beyonders: "They built whole universes. Random ideas given form. They tested them. They twisted life into every shape possible, they pushed it as far as it could go... And then they got bored with life and started loving the idea of death. Sometimes you've tinkered all you can...and the only thing left to do is to tear it all down and start over."

I'd be interested to hear what everyone else thinks. It could be I am reading too much into what Hickman is doing. However, when you add it all up I think this interpretation is definitely a possibility. Thoughts?

great post. i like the ideas you're suggesting, and feel it is a pretty smart commentary on the state of superhero comics in this millennium. nice thinking.

[Darth Kal-el]

There is another way to think of the Beyonders that I think Hickman has hinted at even in the most recent issue of Secret Wars. The Beyonders are actually meant to represent the creators at Marvel. I posted this theory in another thread but I'm putting it below. (NOTE: I'm sorry for the length. I wanted to connect it through a link but I'm not very tech savvy and I just wasted 20 minutes trying to figure out how to do it without success. New to the boards so I'm sorry if this is bad etiquette.)

Original Post
I don't know if you'd class this as a theory or an interpretation of Secret Wars, but here it goes. I think the Beyonders are supposed to represent the creators of these comics. In NA and SW the Beyonders speak to Doom through a rift in space (like someone breaking the fourth wall). They tell Doom they are "Dreamers. Destroyers. All of reality our whim." That description pretty well fits the writers, artists, editors, etc. that are forever shaping the Marvel Universe. In SW 4 Dr. Strange describes the Beyonders as "some alien, ethereal other thing that perfectly constructed not just the material nature of everything, but the rules that governed it as well." Again, this description perfectly fits the crreators of the MU. Also, Hickman is the type of writer who likes to work a lot of symbolism into his stories. Now, if we assume that this is true then many other parts of this story, and the press surrounding it, begin to take on some additional meaning.

When we first heard about Secret Wars, a lot of people thought Marvel was preparing to do a big reboot. (We now know this is not the case. While the post Secret Wars MU will see some major changes it is definitely not a complete reboot.) In NA 33 the Molecule Man explains how the Beyonders were "conducting their grandest of grand experiments. The simultaneous death of everything in the multiverse." From the perspective of these characters, a complete reboot would serve as such an apocalyptic event. If you want to take this meta reading of the text even further just look at what Owen Reece says next. He asks Doom if he remembers his first encounter with the "child beyonder" which "destroyed a universe in order to construct a play world out of the ashes." This makes sense if you consider that the first secret wars was all about throwing these characters together in order to sell toys. Owen goes on to say that these Beyonders "are its betters, with far more ambitious goals." These ambitious goals would be the reboot.

This is where it gets fun. Of all the characters in the marvel universe it is Doom who will stand against these beyonders/creators who would destroy their universe. Doom defiantly tells the beyonders, "You dared to test us. You dared to toy with us. I dare to throw back in your face." What we have here is a fictional character refusing to be abused and played with by his creators. And who in the MU besides Doom would really have the ego to do something like that? Also, Doom tells us that the Beyonders' only weakness is that they are linear meaning they are unable to travel through time. This is a weird weakness for the supposedly all powerful Beyonders to have. Well, from the perspective of a character existing in this universe, the creators would be all powerful, and, obviously, the creators at Marvel are unable to travel through time.

If you choose to interpret Secret Wars in this way then the series ironically becomes the opposite of what so many people thought Marvel was doing. Not only is Secret Wars not a reboot, it is actually a refutation of that idea. The creators may be trying to reboot the universe but the characters refuse to go along. Consider what Cyclops says in SW 1: "You can't kill an idea. It always comes back. Resurrected. Or reborn...into a different form." That pretty much sums up what is happening to the MU right now. (End of original post)

Now that SW5 is out I think there is further evidence to support this theory. Here is the Molecule Man's description of the Beyonders: "They built whole universes. Random ideas given form. They tested them. They twisted life into every shape possible, they pushed it as far as it could go... And then they got bored with life and started loving the idea of death. Sometimes you've tinkered all you can...and the only thing left to do is to tear it all down and start over."

I'd be interested to hear what everyone else thinks. It could be I am reading too much into what Hickman is doing. However, when you add it all up I think this interpretation is definitely a possibility. Thoughts?

Very Morrison in your thinking. I would almost think that after reading Multiverity but Hickman hasn't given as much meta in his hints as Morrison did. I am also not sure would allow Hickman to make meta statements on their company while Morrison just does what he wants. But it's an interesting thought and very creative

[Braun Rodman]

Very Morrison in your thinking. I would almost think that after reading Multiverity but Hickman hasn't given as much meta in his hints as Morrison did

I can't remember where the interview is but Morrison mentions that he needed to get Multiversity out as quickly as possible because he felt that Hickman was working with the same ideas he was

[Darth Kal-el]

I can't remember where the interview is but Morrison mentions that he needed to get Multiversity out as quickly as possible because he felt that Hickman was working with the same ideas he was

Really missed that. Morrison's commentary was only the fans have the ability to destroy superheroes if I interpreted right

[Braun Rodman]

Really missed that. Morrison's commentary was only the fans have the ability to destroy superheroes if I interpreted right

Yeah I think that was a big element of Multiversity along with the ideas that continued from FC and Seven Soldiers with Mandrakk and Neh-boh-luh.

[Joe Acro]

Any well structured story is going to have some down time and moments to catch your breath in between the action

Yeah, but it isn't like there's been a ton of action so far. After issue 1, Hickman has spent a lot of time on exposition and interpersonal conflict.

[Darth Kal-el]

Also it's how they used the downtime. A clunky conversation between two characters who gave intense details of something they lived through together and Valerie setting off an investigation we already knew the answer too. The latter was completely unnecessary. They could have explained the doom energy and just later have her say she was investigating but five pages of it. I would rather have had a scene with Black Swan or Jane or something

[jackolover]

Exactly. Battleworld is the remnants of those universes. This issue does explain how they were saving them but we don't know why Doom goes "NO" during the final attack against the Beyonders and the numbers dropped drastically.

That would have been a wonderful revelation if it was in this book.

[vitruvian]

There is another way to think of the Beyonders that I think Hickman has hinted at even in the most recent issue of Secret Wars. The Beyonders are actually meant to represent the creators at Marvel. I posted this theory in another thread but I'm putting it below. (NOTE: I'm sorry for the length. I wanted to connect it through a link but I'm not very tech savvy and I just wasted 20 minutes trying to figure out how to do it without success. New to the boards so I'm sorry if this is bad etiquette.)

Original Post
I don't know if you'd class this as a theory or an interpretation of Secret Wars, but here it goes. I think the Beyonders are supposed to represent the creators of these comics. In NA and SW the Beyonders speak to Doom through a rift in space (like someone breaking the fourth wall). They tell Doom they are "Dreamers. Destroyers. All of reality our whim." That description pretty well fits the writers, artists, editors, etc. that are forever shaping the Marvel Universe. In SW 4 Dr. Strange describes the Beyonders as "some alien, ethereal other thing that perfectly constructed not just the material nature of everything, but the rules that governed it as well." Again, this description perfectly fits the crreators of the MU. Also, Hickman is the type of writer who likes to work a lot of symbolism into his stories. Now, if we assume that this is true then many other parts of this story, and the press surrounding it, begin to take on some additional meaning.

When we first heard about Secret Wars, a lot of people thought Marvel was preparing to do a big reboot. (We now know this is not the case. While the post Secret Wars MU will see some major changes it is definitely not a complete reboot.) In NA 33 the Molecule Man explains how the Beyonders were "conducting their grandest of grand experiments. The simultaneous death of everything in the multiverse." From the perspective of these characters, a complete reboot would serve as such an apocalyptic event. If you want to take this meta reading of the text even further just look at what Owen Reece says next. He asks Doom if he remembers his first encounter with the "child beyonder" which "destroyed a universe in order to construct a play world out of the ashes." This makes sense if you consider that the first secret wars was all about throwing these characters together in order to sell toys. Owen goes on to say that these Beyonders "are its betters, with far more ambitious goals." These ambitious goals would be the reboot.

This is where it gets fun. Of all the characters in the marvel universe it is Doom who will stand against these beyonders/creators who would destroy their universe. Doom defiantly tells the beyonders, "You dared to test us. You dared to toy with us. I dare to throw back in your face." What we have here is a fictional character refusing to be abused and played with by his creators. And who in the MU besides Doom would really have the ego to do something like that? Also, Doom tells us that the Beyonders' only weakness is that they are linear meaning they are unable to travel through time. This is a weird weakness for the supposedly all powerful Beyonders to have. Well, from the perspective of a character existing in this universe, the creators would be all powerful, and, obviously, the creators at Marvel are unable to travel through time.

If you choose to interpret Secret Wars in this way then the series ironically becomes the opposite of what so many people thought Marvel was doing. Not only is Secret Wars not a reboot, it is actually a refutation of that idea. The creators may be trying to reboot the universe but the characters refuse to go along. Consider what Cyclops says in SW 1: "You can't kill an idea. It always comes back. Resurrected. Or reborn...into a different form." That pretty much sums up what is happening to the MU right now. (End of original post)

Now that SW5 is out I think there is further evidence to support this theory. Here is the Molecule Man's description of the Beyonders: "They built whole universes. Random ideas given form. They tested them. They twisted life into every shape possible, they pushed it as far as it could go... And then they got bored with life and started loving the idea of death. Sometimes you've tinkered all you can...and the only thing left to do is to tear it all down and start over."

I'd be interested to hear what everyone else thinks. It could be I am reading too much into what Hickman is doing. However, when you add it all up I think this interpretation is definitely a possibility. Thoughts?

It's certainly a fun idea, but it does require Doom to be wrong about the Beyonders being linear in time, because what with flashbacks, in media res, time travel stories, retcons short of reboot, and so on, from the perspective of characters in the fiction, the creators of that fiction are anything but linear if you think about it.

[vitruvian]

That would have been a wonderful revelation if it was in this book.

It wouldn't work, though, since there are far more than 22 universes represented on Battleworld.

[Darkspellmaster]

If we do have a case of the creators of the comics being the Beyonder, what does it mean that Doom's created Battle world then? And for that matter, isn't it also the fans and so forth then that keep the universe alive with our love of the characters?