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  1. #16
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    Let me preface this by saying I'm an unrelenting Hickman fanboy and I've enjoyed every second of this storyline, from the launch of the twin Avengers titles, all the way back to the seeds he's left in other books he's worked on, right up to Secret Wars...

    My one nitpick.

    In the final moments before Battleworld, when Doom, Reese and Strange launched the bomb at the Beyonders, there was a moment where Doom shouted "NO!" and it was implied that something had gone wrong. In the subsequent visits to that moment, it's as if that "NO!" moment never happened. So was that just like, lazy TV commercial break cliffhanger stuff? A quick red herring to throw us all off base?

    I would be content if we would see that for a split second Doom thought the plan had failed, the bomb had detonated prematurely or something, but it's as if it never happened and it was a pretty significant moment in the issue it took place in.

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by weenus View Post
    Let me preface this by saying I'm an unrelenting Hickman fanboy and I've enjoyed every second of this storyline, from the launch of the twin Avengers titles, all the way back to the seeds he's left in other books he's worked on, right up to Secret Wars...

    My one nitpick.

    In the final moments before Battleworld, when Doom, Reese and Strange launched the bomb at the Beyonders, there was a moment where Doom shouted "NO!" and it was implied that something had gone wrong. In the subsequent visits to that moment, it's as if that "NO!" moment never happened. So was that just like, lazy TV commercial break cliffhanger stuff? A quick red herring to throw us all off base?

    I would be content if we would see that for a split second Doom thought the plan had failed, the bomb had detonated prematurely or something, but it's as if it never happened and it was a pretty significant moment in the issue it took place in.
    me too man, everytime they flashback to it I've been waiting to find out what happened...

  3. #18
    Veteran Member Darth Kal-el's Avatar
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    Did MM eat the missing universes

  4. #19
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weenus View Post
    Let me preface this by saying I'm an unrelenting Hickman fanboy and I've enjoyed every second of this storyline, from the launch of the twin Avengers titles, all the way back to the seeds he's left in other books he's worked on, right up to Secret Wars...

    My one nitpick.

    In the final moments before Battleworld, when Doom, Reese and Strange launched the bomb at the Beyonders, there was a moment where Doom shouted "NO!" and it was implied that something had gone wrong. In the subsequent visits to that moment, it's as if that "NO!" moment never happened. So was that just like, lazy TV commercial break cliffhanger stuff? A quick red herring to throw us all off base?

    I would be content if we would see that for a split second Doom thought the plan had failed, the bomb had detonated prematurely or something, but it's as if it never happened and it was a pretty significant moment in the issue it took place in.
    Wait. That panel still hasn't been explained?

  5. #20
    Veteran Member Darth Kal-el's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Wait. That panel still hasn't been explained?
    Not Doom's reaction or why it caused the multiverse to drop from hundreds of thousands of universes to 22

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Could be. For sure a lot of them are blonds as I recall. The one we met in NA #1 in Wakanda said her name was Yabbat. Then we saw the blinded ones who looked like the witches from MacBeth in the Library of Worlds.
    I've never been too big on the swans as vals theory, but speaking of people we haven't seen yet, adult Val 616 was last seen about to build in the white space on the last panel of F4 611, which is again as a reminder included in the secret wars prelude tpb and thus very hard to write off. (Not to mention adult Franklin and Nathaniel, who certainly had out-sized roles in Hickman's F4 run). That's an awful lot to get through in 3 issues (along with everything else just mentioned) but it would be very very strange of Hickman to just cut that thread loose.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyrocket View Post
    If you've read Hickman's runs on FF and Avengers Valeria is usually three steps ahead of Reed and Doom. No flies on that girl no matter how young she is (and looks to be even older in the timeline of this series) so it's uncharacteristic of her to have to talk this out to a committee. Strange was second only to Doom on Battleworld ergo who has the power to kill him? um.. Daddy? ... You can argue that Doom's influence clouds her reason. You can argue her frame of reference in this world precludes her making any leaps in that direction. And you can make the assumption she's focussed on the new unknown variables of the new arrivals. Fine, I'm good with that. Again, my only criticism is how necessary it was to slow the story down to have her walk everyone else through it.
    I agree with your larger points about pacing, although was on the whole satisfied with this issue. However, I think you might be missing the point of Valeria's recruiting the Freedom Foundation for her search.

    My reading of both the night time scene at Strange's monument and the last scene is that Valeria knows very well that Doom killed Strange: She asks Doom why he didn't kill the alleged culprits; he responds by saying that he would destroy the world in his rage and telling her not to ask too many questions. Later, after the FF explain energy signatures and determine that Strange was responsible for dispersing the alleged culprits, she and Nostradamus agree that the answer to who killed Strange is something too frightening to consider. So Valeria sends her colleagues off in secret -- no telling anyone else what they're up to; she will deal with Doom as needed -- to find out not only who these interlopers are but why they frighten Doom. It's no longer a search for suspects; it's an investigation that will threatens to upend the universe. In other words, she has decided to find out the answers to questions that Doom has told her not to ask.

  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Kal-el View Post
    Not Doom's reaction or why it caused the multiverse to drop from hundreds of thousands of universes to 22
    It could be an unintended consequence of the Molecule Man bomb -- they kill the Beyonders but also kill the universes connected to those Molecule Men.

  9. #24

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    Where is Thanos at the end of the issue? I get that he is outside the Shield and thus in Zombieland, but what are the statues that he is standing beneath? I haven't read the zombie series, so my apologies for my ignorance.

  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla90210 View Post
    I agree with your larger points about pacing, although was on the whole satisfied with this issue. However, I think you might be missing the point of Valeria's recruiting the Freedom Foundation for her search.

    My reading of both the night time scene at Strange's monument and the last scene is that Valeria knows very well that Doom killed Strange: She asks Doom why he didn't kill the alleged culprits; he responds by saying that he would destroy the world in his rage and telling her not to ask too many questions. Later, after the FF explain energy signatures and determine that Strange was responsible for dispersing the alleged culprits, she and Nostradamus agree that the answer to who killed Strange is something too frightening to consider. So Valeria sends her colleagues off in secret -- no telling anyone else what they're up to; she will deal with Doom as needed -- to find out not only who these interlopers are but why they frighten Doom. It's no longer a search for suspects; it's an investigation that will threatens to upend the universe. In other words, she has decided to find out the answers to questions that Doom has told her not to ask.
    that's how I read it too

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla90210 View Post
    Where is Thanos at the end of the issue? I get that he is outside the Shield and thus in Zombieland, but what are the statues that he is standing beneath? I haven't read the zombie series, so my apologies for my ignorance.
    I think theyre just memorials to fallen heroes who have died protecting the shield

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla90210 View Post
    I agree with your larger points about pacing, although was on the whole satisfied with this issue. However, I think you might be missing the point of Valeria's recruiting the Freedom Foundation for her search.

    My reading of both the night time scene at Strange's monument and the last scene is that Valeria knows very well that Doom killed Strange: She asks Doom why he didn't kill the alleged culprits; he responds by saying that he would destroy the world in his rage and telling her not to ask too many questions. Later, after the FF explain energy signatures and determine that Strange was responsible for dispersing the alleged culprits, she and Nostradamus agree that the answer to who killed Strange is something too frightening to consider. So Valeria sends her colleagues off in secret -- no telling anyone else what they're up to; she will deal with Doom as needed -- to find out not only who these interlopers are but why they frighten Doom. It's no longer a search for suspects; it's an investigation that will threatens to upend the universe. In other words, she has decided to find out the answers to questions that Doom has told her not to ask.
    Yes, that's a good point. I wondered that myself on a second read.

  13. #28
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    I don't think it makes much sense for the black swans to be Valerias. As I recall, some of them weren't even human. There's also a scene where he meets his first recruit, and it seems like an encounter with a random runaway. If anything, I got the impression she was a mutant or something.

    Re: Valeria at the end of FF: I think that was the opposite of a loose end. Hickman certainly has a long view when it comes to plotting, but his last issues of FF was a lot of deck clearing. He got her out of the fantastic four book and cleared the way for the next writer, by putting her far away and saying "well, she's got something to do now". Look at that 'parliament of doom' arc that ended up being all of one issue. It's v1.0 of Secret Wars. Had he stayed on that book, I think you'd be seeing a different version of this event right now.

    As cool as it would be to have an adult Valeria sighting, I'm not sure it'd make for great storytelling to have a character who hasn't been seen in years, suddenly make an appearance and play an important role.

    Re: inconsistencies. I agree Doom's "no. No!" reaction is kind of a head-scratcher, but it probably alludes to him seeing most of the remaining universes destroyed. The other confusing part of this whole story was that Great Society arc with Strange coming back with the black priest power, but not really; selling his soul, but not really; then having all this extra power anyway, with no explanation.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla90210 View Post
    It could be an unintended consequence of the Molecule Man bomb -- they kill the Beyonders but also kill the universes connected to those Molecule Men.
    Yeah. I like that explanation. Now that we find out Doom has collected Molecule Men to put into his bomb box, there is no reason why Doom had taken them all from realities still in tact and un-Incursioned. I can only conclude Doom found a way to set off the Molecule Men at once with the trigger the Beyonders put in them.

    The only mechanism outstanding in that link is the connection between a Molecule Man exploding, and his remote reality exploding.
    Last edited by jackolover; 08-18-2015 at 09:59 PM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla90210 View Post
    Where is Thanos at the end of the issue? I get that he is outside the Shield and thus in Zombieland, but what are the statues that he is standing beneath? I haven't read the zombie series, so my apologies for my ignorance.
    I don't think he crossed over into the Deadlands. I think he's on the safe side. Why would there be a memorial inside with all the zombies and Ultrons? Plus there were two hammers. Suppose a zombie was somehow deemed worthy to pick one up, that would cause some extra chaos.

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