Do you agree with the saying "There no bad characters, only bad writers"?

[MegaManChiefFan]

I don't believe this in the slightest. There are some excellent stories with some awful characters to it. However, it is much more common to have a bad writer and a bad cast of characters, but there still is a pretty big chance you can get some really good writing in a story arc with some terrible character arcs in the same series.

[Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon]

I don't believe this in the slightest. There are some excellent stories with some awful characters to it. However, it is much more common to have a bad writer and a bad cast of characters, but there still is a pretty big chance you can get some really good writing in a story arc with some terrible character arcs in the same series.

The long halloween is used with calender man. That's one great story arc with a joke character that has sucked in most of his other stories.

[Totoro Man]

The long halloween is used with calender man. That's one great story arc with a joke character that has sucked in most of his other stories.

yeaaah, but Loeb basically turned Julian Day into a Hannibal Lector clone. and he was mostly used to be ambiguous and to provide exposition. you could have removed him from the story entirely and things wouldn't have turned out that much different. I thought he was a pretty underwhelming character in THLH.

the only good version on this character concept I can remember was "Calendar Girl" as done by Batman: the Animated Series. and gender bending the character, adding a pervious career as a model, and giving her body dysmorphic disorder actually does a great deal to improve upon the character. they kept the gimmick but managed to make Calendar Girl more complex and interesting. granted, you can only really do that sort of story once or twice before it wears thin. in that sense she's like Baby Doll. it's a very good character for a single story-- but not so flexible or powerful in concept that you could make numerous follow-up stories or variations on the theme.

[Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon]

yeaaah, but Loeb basically turned Julian Day into a Hannibal Lector clone. and he was mostly used to be ambiguous and to provide exposition. you could have removed him from the story entirely and things wouldn't have turned out that much different. I thought he was a pretty underwhelming character in THLH.

the only good version on this character concept I can remember was "Calendar Girl" as done by Batman: the Animated Series. and gender bending the character, adding a pervious career as a model, and giving her body dysmorphic disorder actually does a great deal to improve upon the character. they kept the gimmick but managed to make Calendar Girl more complex and interesting. granted, you can only really do that sort of story once or twice before it wears thin. in that sense she's like Baby Doll. it's a very good character for a single story-- but not so flexible or powerful in concept that you could make numerous follow-up stories or variations on the theme.

Also not all characters can be turned into murderers as a answer to the problem.

Abestos Man
Proving to be a 1 trick pony he defeats the human torch once then decides for a rematch with no adjustments.
Human Torch defeats him the 2nd time and years later he has cancer. He may have the fastest success to failure to retirement in comic books history.
He failed faster than Disco music.

Stilt Man
The fact that he failed as both a super hero and super villain shows he is epic lame.

[Carabas]

He failed faster than Disco music.

That is actually not necessarily very fast at all.

[Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon]

That is actually not necessarily very fast at all.

Ok he failed faster than the detroit lions blowing a lead in any vast games.

[Jeremi]

Also not all characters can be turned into murderers as a answer to the problem.

Abestos Man
Proving to be a 1 trick pony he defeats the human torch once then decides for a rematch with no adjustments.
Human Torch defeats him the 2nd time and years later he has cancer. He may have the fastest success to failure to retirement in comic books history.
He failed faster than Disco music.

Stilt Man
The fact that he failed as both a super hero and super villain shows he is epic lame.

Actually in the old Champions book Stilt-Man has a very good showing against the team...though I don't know if that means he's great or if the team was just terrible lol.

[Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon]

Actually in the old Champions book Stilt-Man has a very good showing against the team...though I don't know if that means he's great or if the team was just terrible lol.

Yet he still got killed by Punisher.

[Totoro Man]

and the Punisher, in the hands of Garth Ennis, killed the entire Marvel universe. so maybe it's not THAT bad. ;-)

[Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon]

No I don't agree with that idea. Some characters are bad characters and no good or great writer can make them good or great quality characters not without a extreme makeover which is saying this idea was a stinker a failure that needs a extreme makeover.

Jihad
Wow what a utterly unoriginal uncreative and racist character that is a Genie that wants to conquer the World with the word Jihad as his name. Even if this wasn't shortly before 9/11 he is still a unoriginal uncreative and racist character that would need a extreme makeover including a nane for him to be not racist along with creative and original for why the hell he wants to rule the World or conquer the World.

[Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon]

That is actually not necessarily very fast at all.

Ok his failure took less time than the Bills choking in the Super Bowl by missing a game winning field goal when they played the underdog Giants.

[Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon]

and the Punisher, in the hands of Garth Ennis, killed the entire Marvel universe. so maybe it's not THAT bad. ;-)

It is awful because the Punisher is a formidable adversary that has shown he can fight Daredevil, Spider Man, etc.

The Stilt Man is a jabroni that should remain dead.

[Carabas]

Ok his failure took less time than the Bills choking in the Super Bowl by missing a game winning field goal when they played the underdog Giants.

That's from, like, three years ago.

Also, any kind of sports thing is going to utterly and completely over my head.
I'm actually proud that I even know that the Super Bowl is a sports thing, but I would have to actually look up which specific sport is played there.

[K7P5V]

To me, the greatest example of the OP question is Black Adam. Ordway improved him from the one-note chariacture that he had been, but it was really Johns that made him into a premier anti-hero of the DCU. I sometimes think they keep Captain Name-Now-Unavailable as an unfortunate price of keeping Black Adam.

Hey, no need to put down the good Captain just to prop up Teth-Adam.

But I'm totally with you on Ordway. Any creator can exploit the greatness found within each and every individual who has ever made a comic book appearance, and I truly believe BOTH Billy Batson and Black Adam are no exceptions.

[wjowski]

The existence of Guardians of the Galaxy as a powerhouse movie franchise is proof enough it's true.