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  1. #76
    Truth and Conviction Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abmccray View Post
    Toriyama didn't really think of SSJ2 as actually being "SSJ2"; just Gohan's perfected, super awesome version of Super Saiyan. That whole arc was about perfecting the SSJ form and Gohan basically did it. Then people outside of Toriyama named it SSJ2 in the meantime, and somewhere midway through the Buu saga, he decided to create the useless SSJ3 that never really accomplished anything, wasn't -that- much more powerful, and kind of sucked.

    Battle of the Gods scaled things back down, and now Toriyama is basically saying "SSJ2 and 3 are weaker transformations, further perfecting SSJ is the way to go." The "god" power is accessed in regular SSJ now, ad they're basically using that, only at this point.
    Pretty much. The whole 1, 2, and 3 are just what Goku decided to call them.

    Heck, if you go further back, early databooks called SSJ2 Super Saiyan Grade Five.
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  2. #77
    Pro Mutant Anarchist's Avatar
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    Which kinda makes sense, considering that there are 4 different versions of the SSJ1 (the original Frieza/Android 19-Form, the *Super-Vegeta*-Form, the Bulked Up Form and the one Gohan and Goku had when stepping out of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber).

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Pretty much. The whole 1, 2, and 3 are just what Goku decided to call them.

    Heck, if you go further back, early databooks called SSJ2 Super Saiyan Grade Five.
    Still wished he kept with that. Then, instead of SSJ"3" he could have just made it an SSJ "2". It would be much more fitting as it actually does look like a separate transformation and gives a bigger boost than SSJ "2" gives.

    Kinda wish Akira made SSJ4 canon though(he did create that form after all). GT may have sucked(it had great ideas, especially with the whole "overusing the Dragonballs thing, just executed them poorly) but man that form, and the x10 Kamehameha were awesome looking.

    Side Note: So I guess the Time patrol ranger in Xenoverse is somewhere in the Bills-Whis range near the end of the story despite not using God Ki. I say this due to their performance against Bills, against the games antagonist(who has a nice showing himself that I won't mention here due to spoilers), and winning their sparing match against Whis and Bills despite only having Time Patrol Trunks as a partner.

    I'd say that would even put the ranger above the Ultimate Tenkaichi's created character(who, before becoming a SSJ; casually smacked around androids 17 and 18 at the same time, and defeated Baby, Omega Shenron, and Ultimate Shenron as a SSJ "1") in terms of power.
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    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
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    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.

  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    Still wished he kept with that. Then, instead of SSJ"3" he could have just made it an SSJ "2". It would be much more fitting as it actually does look like a separate transformation and gives a bigger boost than SSJ "2" gives.
    The boost from SSJ1 to SSJ2 is actually far greater than SSJ2 to SSJ3.

    SSJ2 characters could fight with Buu for a short while, and SSJ3 made them roughly equal.

    Cell was stronger than SSJ1 Gohan, and effectively got one-shotted by SSJ2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    Kinda wish Akira made SSJ4 canon though(he did create that form after all)
    He made concept art for it at their request, that's not the same as creating it.
    Last edited by Siriel; 02-21-2015 at 01:48 PM.

  5. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    Side Note: So I guess the Time patrol ranger in Xenoverse is somewhere in the Bills-Whis range near the end of the story despite not using God Ki. I say this due to their performance against Bills, against the games antagonist(who has a nice showing himself that I won't mention here due to spoilers), and winning their sparing match against Whis and Bills despite only having Time Patrol Trunks as a partner.
    I have serious doubt sparring matches are canon.

    And the story mode itself doesn't support him being in that range.

    spoilers:
    Démigra fails to control Bills (who never goes all-out), then flees from the fight.
    Later the Future Warrior needs help either from God Goku directly or to receive power from most of the important characters to destroy Démigra.
    end of spoilers

    Somewhere around God Goku would be the more reasonable spot to place him.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    The boost from SSJ1 to SSJ2 is actually far greater than SSJ2 to SSJ3.
    Afraid not. SSJ has been stated to give a 2x boost from the ssj state while ssj3 has been stated to give a 4x boost from the ssj2 state.

    SSJ2 characters could fight with Buu for a short while, and SSJ3 made them roughly equal.
    If you mean fat Buu then not really no. Buu toyed around and pummeled Gohan and Vegeta, both being ssj2. Goku, while far from equal from fat buu, held up a little better. He also did very well against Kid Buu while SSJ 2 Vegeta couldn't even put up half as much of a fight that Goku did.

    Cell was stronger than SSJ1 Gohan, and effectively got one-shotted by SSJ2.
    I see that as more Gohan just getting an all around boost from his rage really. Not only that but it wasn't as if Cell was 2x as strong as a SSJ1(Super Perfect Cell probably was). And Gohan was the strongest Z fighter there even prior to transforming. Quite frankly I always saw Perfect Cell's full power as being 50% stronger than SSJ1 Goku(he was holding back against Goku, as evident by him charging up after Gohan transformed), and SSJ1 Gohan as 5-10% stronger than his dad. Add a SSJ2 boost on that and he is going to be 55-60% stronger than Perfect Cell. Which would be enough to utterly school Cell like he did.



    No. He made concept art for it at their request.
    Ah. Well it was some awesome concept art either way.
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    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
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    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.

  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    Afraid not. SSJ has been stated to give a 2x boost from the ssj state while ssj3 has been stated to give a 4x boost from the ssj2 state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    If you mean fat Buu then not really no. Buu toyed around and pummeled Gohan and Vegeta, both being ssj2.
    And promptly proceeded to think he would die from Vegeta's suicide attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    Goku, while far from equal from fat buu, held up a little better.
    They were pretty equal and Goku himself said he could have won if he wanted to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    He also did very well against Kid Buu while SSJ 2 Vegeta couldn't even put up half as much of a fight that Goku did.
    He would have won against Kid Buu had it not been for the time limit, and Vegeta was able to keep Kid Buu pinned down for a considerable amount of time.

    This is not at all the same level of difference as "going from Cell being considerably stronger than Gohan to effortlessly stomping him in one or two hits".

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    I have serious doubt sparring matches are canon.
    Whole thing is non-canon I am pretty sure. Just brought it up for kicks. Unless you mean non-canon for the Xenoverse story. Then in that case that fight was part of the story. spoilers:
    It took place after Bills and the Ranger fought off Demi and it was a mandatory fight.
    end of spoilers

    And the story mode itself doesn't support him being in that range.

    spoilers:
    Démigra fails to control Bills (who never goes all-out), then flees from the fight.
    Later the Future Warrior needs help either from God Goku directly or to receive power from most of the important characters to destroy Démigra.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Considering that Bills couldn't outright solo Dem, it says a lot about his power. We don't really know whether or not he went all out or not when he and the ranger teamed up. The fact that it took two of them in order to beat Demi should say that he(Demi) is at least in the Bills-Whis ball park in terms of power. Then later when you fight him again; he gets a power boost and transforms. Considering he is a lot stronger now, that would make him at least around Whis+ level of power. Considering that Whis is almost 3x more powerful than SSG Goku, in order for Goku and the Ranger to defeat a guy who is most likely at least slightly stronger than Whis, the Ranger would have to be stronger than SSG Goku as just being on his level would not be enough against a guy who is more than 3x more powerful than a SSG Goku. Meaning that the Ranger himself would have to be in the Bills-Whis ballpark himself imo.
    end of spoilers
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    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    And promptly proceeded to think he would die from Vegeta's suicide attack.
    Who Buu did? Well considering he didn't die that should say something of itself...That and the fight between them showed a much larger gap. Buu really didn't have any difficulty with Vegeta. At all. Goku at least gave him a decent enough fight.


    They were pretty equal and Goku himself said he could have won if he wanted to.
    Which he later corrects himself and admitted that was not the case. If he was still dead then yes he might have been capable of pulling it off. However he overestimated himself and was out of power completely. As he said later after his attempt to charge up for more power failed.

    He would have won against Kid Buu had it not been for the time limit, and Vegeta was able to keep Kid Buu pinned down for a considerable amount of time.
    With that barrage of ki blasts right? It's been a while but I seem to recall Vegeta shooting a barrage of ki blasts at Kid Buu for a bit. All of which didn't really do anything. Kid Buu, if anything was toying around with Vegeta more than he did with Goku. Vegeta also lasted a lot less than Goku did and it took Mr.Buu getting involved to really stall for time.

    This is not at all the same level of difference as "going from Cell being considerably stronger than Gohan to effortlessly stomping him in one or two hits".
    Being more than 50% stronger than Cell is a decent gap I would imagine. And besides, Gohan always gets a massive boost when he gets angry like he did. The SSJ2 form may have only multiplied his power by 2, but it is doubtful that was his only power boost as getting angry in general would have increased his total amount of power. Again this is a kid who, during the Sayian Saga, went from having a pl under 10 to being stronger than Uncle Raditz just by getting royally pissed off. This is the kid who, while on Namek, went from having roughly the same pl as Sayian Saga Vegeta, to being strong enough to momentarily smack around and slightly hurt 2nd form Frieza just by getting pissed off.

    So it is highly doubtful if that transformation of his was the only reason for his boost in power.
    Last edited by Cody; 02-21-2015 at 03:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Physically grabbing an released Black Hole to stop it is like throwing a sandwich at Galactus to stop him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.

  10. #85
    Fantastic Member Bluekey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    Being more than 50% stronger than Cell is a decent gap I would imagine. And besides, Gohan always gets a massive boost when he gets angry like he did. The SSJ2 form may have only multiplied his power by 2, but it is doubtful that was his only power boost as getting angry in general would have increased his total amount of power. Again this is a kid who, during the Sayian Saga, went from having a pl under 10 to being stronger than Uncle Raditz just by getting royally pissed off. This is the kid who, while on Namek, went from having roughly the same pl as Sayian Saga Vegeta, to being strong enough to momentarily smack around and slightly hurt 2nd form Frieza just by getting pissed off.

    So it is highly doubtful if that transformation of his was the only reason for his boost in power.
    50% is not nearly enough. More like 200% given that he still beat super perfect cell after his power had been "cut in half".

  11. #86
    Mighty Member abmccray's Avatar
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    Buu wasn't a ridiculously huge jump over Cell, and wasn't that much powerful than the SSJ2s in that period (he could beat them, but not as badly as, say, Gohan would have stomped a Cell saga Vegeta).

    SSJ3 was somewhere around equal to Majin Buu (Goku's "maybe could have" statements missed a lot of points, like when Buu powered up and tried, he was a lot different than the happy playful version he encountered).

    Those multiplier statements come from the same outside sources that estimate power levels, and don't necessarily go along with Toriyama's actual ideas necessarily. I don't really think they should be used directly, personally, for that reason.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluekey View Post
    50% is not nearly enough. More like 200% given that he still beat super perfect cell after his power had been "cut in half".
    Yea but he also had a lot of help with the rest of the Z fighters blasting Cell from behind. Especially from Vegeta.
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    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abmccray View Post
    Buu wasn't a ridiculously huge jump over Cell, and wasn't that much powerful than the SSJ2s in that period (he could beat them, but not as badly as, say, Gohan would have stomped a Cell saga Vegeta).
    Which Buu? As Hazard pointed out in another thread, the Fat Buu that was first encountered was just as powerful as Super Buu. It's just that he had the Grand Supreme Kai's influence keeping him tempered. That makes him a huge jump over Cell. Mr.Buu on the other hand wouldn't have been that big of a jump over Cell as he was separate from his evil self and was a lot weaker because of it.

    SSJ3 was somewhere around equal to Majin Buu (Goku's "maybe could have" statements missed a lot of points, like when Buu powered up and tried, he was a lot different than the happy playful version he encountered).
    He was about on par with Kid Buu yes.

    Those multiplier statements come from the same outside sources that estimate power levels, and don't necessarily go along with Toriyama's actual ideas necessarily. I don't really think they should be used directly, personally, for that reason.
    They came from the Daizenshuu if I am not mistaken. Considering that those books got their info from AT himself I'd say they are pretty accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Physically grabbing an released Black Hole to stop it is like throwing a sandwich at Galactus to stop him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.

  14. #89
    Incredible Member buutenks's Avatar
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    Dead goku in ssj3 could have beaten both kid buu and fat buu since he would not have that energy issue and could go all out.While alive he couldnt,goku clearly stated that if he could go to full power he would destroy kid buu,but due to his mortal body while attempting to go to full power the reverse happened and he lost it.Plus in the fight vs fat buu even after being punched multiple times by fat buu goku didnt get a single scratch on him.

    For the record i enjoyed the ssj3 transformation,goku and gotenks looked cool.

    As for cell,well gohan caught him by surprise,but if it would have been a legit fight,then id say they would proly be even or very close atleast.

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buutenks View Post
    Dead goku in ssj3 could have beaten both kid buu and fat buu since he would not have that energy issue and could go all out.While alive he couldnt,goku clearly stated that if he could go to full power he would destroy kid buu,but due to his mortal body while attempting to go to full power the reverse happened and he lost it.Plus in the fight vs fat buu even after being punched multiple times by fat buu goku didnt get a single scratch on him.
    And Goku did even less to Fat Buu. At the time they fought, Fat Buu still had his evil self inside of him. He was no different from Super Buu in terms of power. But restrained due to having the Grand Supreme Kais personality. So SSJ3 Goku never really had any chance against him.


    As for cell,well gohan caught him by surprise,but if it would have been a legit fight,then id say they would proly be even or very close atleast.
    No. Perfect Cell was just completely outclassed in every way. There was no surprise at all. He gave everything he had and it wasn't enough. Super Perfect Cell is a different story of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Physically grabbing an released Black Hole to stop it is like throwing a sandwich at Galactus to stop him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.

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