Would Luthor care if someone else offed Superman?

[TheNewFiftyForum]

A well worn trope in superhero comics and popular fiction in general is the hero's nemesis who doesn't want anyone else to kill the hero, as they see it as their and only their privilege to do so. Joker is often portrayed like this, having gone out of his way to save Batman from forces other than him on several occasions, and the same can be said for Doctor Doom's relationship to Reed Richards and Venom's to Spider-Man.

However, does Lex Luthor fit this trope? I know he's often portrayed as a raging egomaniac at heart, which would surely forbid him accepting anyone else claiming victory over Superman, but he has also been shown as more of a pragmatist who truly believes that Superman represents a philosophical threat to humanity. A Luthor with that mindset wouldn't care if someone else took out Superman, right? Would Luthors from different publishing eras have different ideas on the matter? This is a job for the resident Superman historians!

[superduperman]

He certainly was upset when Doomsday did it.

[DrNewGod]

Up until the New52 relaunch, Luthor's been characterized as seeing Superman's death as his prerogative ever since the character went bald. It plays to Luthor's belief that he is the supreme intellect of our species, and determination to prove it by demonstrating that he, and ONLY he can destroy Superman's myth of superiority.

However, I don't remember Luthor getting especially wound up when the Crime Syndicate seemed to have killed Superman during Forever Evil. I was never clear on whether that was because he didn't believe the JL was dead, or because he viewed Ultraman as an identical, other-dimensional copy of Superman.

[Frontier]

Generally, Luthor is pretty obsessed with killing Superman and there've been quite a few plans I recall him concocting that ultimately were supposed to give him the opportunity and the method of personally killing Superman himself.

So I think he puts a lot of stock in being the one who gets to kill Superman. He believes Superman is a threat to humanity or impeding mankind's progress and he, one of our greatest minds and a sterling example of our potential and talent, is the only one who stands a chance of stopping him. Which is further exacerbated by his own personal hatred for the Man of Steel.

Young Justice Lex is the only one I could conceive not caring, what with the whole "Revenge is a suckers game" he lifted from David Xanatos, but for all we know Superman is the one exception to that rule.

[JBatmanFan05]

I know he's often portrayed as a raging egomaniac at heart, which would surely forbid him accepting anyone else claiming victory over Superman, but he has also been shown as more of a pragmatist who truly believes that Superman represents a philosophical threat to humanity.

These are probably not mutually exclusive. Lex is probably both in his head. You may say they cut into each other, and that may be, but it's like that with a lot of villains. Anyway, the comics support that Lex would indeed care. He wants to kill Superman himself.

[Darth Kal-el]

In the Death of Superman he was quite upset

[Sacred Knight]

But he did actually get over it rather quickly. Far quicker than I would hope to expect from someone as egomaniacal as Lex. Always felt that was a part they dropped the ball on a bit. I mean, he had a temper tantrum breaking a chair over Doomsday's corpse but after that, he was pretty chill.

[manofsteel1979]

But he did actually get over it rather quickly. Far quicker than I would hope to expect from someone as egomaniacal as Lex. Always felt that was a part they dropped the ball on a bit. I mean, he had a temper tantrum breaking a chair over Doomsday's corpse but after that, he was pretty chill.

Well you also forget that at the time he had Supergirl (or a Supergirl) under his thumb, The city once again his as it once was and a new lease on life with his recently aquirred new 21 year old physically fit healthy body...WITH HAIR. After the initial disappointment of realizing he didn't get a chance to kill Superman, he likely stepped back...looked at the situation...and quickly realized how sweet life was for him at that time and was like..."you know what?....I can work with this."

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

New-52 Lex Luthor definitely would.





The only one I'm uncertain about is Golden Age/Earth-2 Luthor.

[Toreador]

Lex's ego couldn't stand that someone else did what he tried and couldn't do to Superman.

[TheNewFiftyForum]

Generally, Luthor is pretty obsessed with killing Superman and there've been quite a few plans I recall him concocting that ultimately were supposed to give him the opportunity and the method of personally killing Superman himself.

So I think he puts a lot of stock in being the one who gets to kill Superman. He believes Superman is a threat to humanity or impeding mankind's progress and he, one of our greatest minds and a sterling example of our potential and talent, is the only one who stands a chance of stopping him. Which is further exacerbated by his own personal hatred for the Man of Steel.

Young Justice Lex is the only one I could conceive not caring, what with the whole "Revenge is a suckers game" he lifted from David Xanatos, but for all we know Superman is the one exception to that rule.

This is something I'd like to see more of. I realize that there's an interesting dichotomy between Luthor's pragmatic reasoning and his insane ego as well as the whole "Does he really believe he's doing what he does for the good of mankind or can he simply not take that there's smeone out there who's more capable than him?" - aspect of his character, but I think it would be both refreshing and interesting in it's own right to see Luthor not caring about who or what takes out Superman or how he/she/it does it, as long as it's done. Those (IMO, of course) hammy and tired panels from Morrison's Action Comics kind of strengthens that point.

[Auguste Dupin]

This is something I'd like to see more of. I realize that there's an interesting dichotomy between Luthor's pragmatic reasoning and his insane ego as well as the whole "Does he really believe he's doing what he does for the good of mankind or can he simply not take that there's smeone out there who's more capable than him?" - aspect of his character, but I think it would be both refreshing and interesting in it's own right to see Luthor not caring about who or what takes out Superman or how he/she/it does it, as long as it's done. Those (IMO, of course) hammy and tired panels from Morrison's Action Comics kind of strengthens that point.

The problem with Luthor not caring about who kills Superman is that, well, if he doesn't care, then there's no dichotomy between his "for the good of mankind" argument and his ego.
The whole point of that dichotomy is that, ultimately, he doesn't actually care about mankind, it's just an excuse he gives himself to justify his behaviour. When he says "that alien is upstaging mankind", what he actually means is that he's upstaging him. The way I see it, Luthor sees himself as Nietzsche's "übermensch", the real Superman, the man whose actions are just becaue he's the best around, and who kills God in the end to take its place as the moral standpoint of humanity. So, in his mind, he needs to be the one who beat Superman in the end. He would tell you that it's because he needs to prove that mankind is stronger than gods, but the truth is that he needs to prove he's stronger than gods.
The problem with making him someone who genuinely thinks Superman needs to be destroyed for the good of mankind is that it's not very interesting either. That just makes him a misguided racist, a niche that is already filled by people like Sam Lane. To me, what makes the heart of Luthor as a character is his relation between his pretended good intentions and his ego. He wants to destroy Superman because he's in the way of his personal quest to become Earth's alpha male. If someone else kills Superman, he's back to square one and hasn't proved a thing.

[DrNewGod]

Generally, Luthor is pretty obsessed with killing Superman and there've been quite a few plans I recall him concocting that ultimately were supposed to give him the opportunity and the method of personally killing Superman himself.

So I think he puts a lot of stock in being the one who gets to kill Superman. He believes Superman is a threat to humanity or impeding mankind's progress and he, one of our greatest minds and a sterling example of our potential and talent, is the only one who stands a chance of stopping him. Which is further exacerbated by his own personal hatred for the Man of Steel.

Young Justice Lex is the only one I could conceive not caring, what with the whole "Revenge is a suckers game" he lifted from David Xanatos, but for all we know Superman is the one exception to that rule.

This is something I'd like to see more of. I realize that there's an interesting dichotomy between Luthor's pragmatic reasoning and his insane ego as well as the whole "Does he really believe he's doing what he does for the good of mankind or can he simply not take that there's smeone out there who's more capable than him?" - aspect of his character, but I think it would be both refreshing and interesting in it's own right to see Luthor not caring about who or what takes out Superman or how he/she/it does it, as long as it's done. Those (IMO, of course) hammy and tired panels from Morrison's Action Comics kind of strengthens that point.

The problem with Luthor not caring about who kills Superman is that, well, if he doesn't care, then there's no dichotomy between his "for the good of mankind" argument and his ego.
The whole point of that dichotomy is that, ultimately, he doesn't actually care about mankind, it's just an excuse he gives himself to justify his behaviour. When he says "that alien is upstaging mankind", what he actually means is that he's upstaging him. The way I see it, Luthor sees himself as Nietzsche's "übermensch", the real Superman, the man whose actions are just becaue he's the best around, and who kills God in the end to take its place as the moral standpoint of humanity. So, in his mind, he needs to be the one who beat Superman in the end. He would tell you that it's because he needs to prove that mankind is stronger than gods, but the truth is that he needs to prove he's stronger than gods.
The problem with making him someone who genuinely thinks Superman needs to be destroyed for the good of mankind is that it's not very interesting either. That just makes him a misguided racist, a niche that is already filled by people like Sam Lane. To me, what makes the heart of Luthor as a character is his relation between his pretended good intentions and his ego. He wants to destroy Superman because he's in the way of his personal quest to become Earth's alpha male. If someone else kills Superman, he's back to square one and hasn't proved a thing.

IMO, it gets complicated.

Luthor does think of himself as the true "übermensch", and as part of that regards himself as beyond good, evil, and even ego. However, his fatal flaw is that he is in fact enslaved by his own ego, eternally undermining his ability to achieve Nietzsche's ideal. Further his ego is constantly bruised by the view others hold of Superman as a superior being in comparison to how others view Luthor himself, no matter how firmly he protests that the views of "inferiors" are meaningless. Unable to confront those concepts - or even to perceive them- and further goaded by the interference of Superman with his own goals, Luthor fixes on Superman as the sole obstacle to his own ascension to the status of a fully realized, superior being.

The sad irony is, even in a world devoid of Superman, Luthor would not truly be self-realized. His internal flaws would constantly cause him to see even minor challenges to his self-image as obstacles to his rightful place in the world. It's just that, as things are, he ignores those minor challenges as meaningless in the face of a larger threat to his ego.

[Auguste Dupin]

IMO, it gets complicated.

Luthor does think of himself as the true "übermensch", and as part of that regards himself as beyond good, evil, and even ego. However, his fatal flaw is that he is in fact enslaved by his own ego, eternally undermining his ability to achieve Nietzsche's ideal. Further his ego is constantly bruised by the view others hold of Superman as a superior being in comparison to how others view Luthor himself, no matter how firmly he protests that the views of "inferiors" are meaningless. Unable to confront those concepts - or even to perceive them- and further goaded by the interference of Superman with his own goals, Luthor fixes on Superman as the sole obstacle to his own ascension to the status of a fully realized, superior being.

The sad irony is, even in a world devoid of Superman, Luthor would not truly be self-realized. His internal flaws would constantly cause him to see even minor challenges to his self-image as obstacles to his rightful place in the world. It's just that, as things are, he ignores those minor challenges as meaningless in the face of a larger threat to his ego.

Exactly. The true übermensch is someone who accomplishes himself and follows his own moral code with no regard towards what others think of him. But Luthor is someone who, because of his ego, needs the validation of the rest of the world. He needs them to recognise him as the best mankind can offer. It's ultimately what motivates most of his actions, good or bad.
Arguably, it's his desire to become an übermensch that prevents him from becoming one.

[TheNewFiftyForum]

The problem with Luthor not caring about who kills Superman is that, well, if he doesn't care, then there's no dichotomy between his "for the good of mankind" argument and his ego.
The whole point of that dichotomy is that, ultimately, he doesn't actually care about mankind, it's just an excuse he gives himself to justify his behaviour. When he says "that alien is upstaging mankind", what he actually means is that he's upstaging him. The way I see it, Luthor sees himself as Nietzsche's "übermensch", the real Superman, the man whose actions are just becaue he's the best around, and who kills God in the end to take its place as the moral standpoint of humanity. So, in his mind, he needs to be the one who beat Superman in the end. He would tell you that it's because he needs to prove that mankind is stronger than gods, but the truth is that he needs to prove he's stronger than gods.
The problem with making him someone who genuinely thinks Superman needs to be destroyed for the good of mankind is that it's not very interesting either. That just makes him a misguided racist, a niche that is already filled by people like Sam Lane. To me, what makes the heart of Luthor as a character is his relation between his pretended good intentions and his ego. He wants to destroy Superman because he's in the way of his personal quest to become Earth's alpha male. If someone else kills Superman, he's back to square one and hasn't proved a thing.

I feel like that dichotomy, to fire on all cylinders, need some measure of ambiguity to it. Because while i agree with you about Luthor the misguided racist as a limited character interpretation, I think the same is true for Luthor the egomaniac. Ideally, I think that the reader and maybe even Luthor himself should be at least somewhat in the dark about his true intentions for acting like he does concerning Superman.