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  1. #76
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    Web Warriors issue 1 and Spider-Gwen issue 3 at very least.
    Brevoort said than it was Web Warriors who got it wrong. It will be interesting to read the next issue and see if the will of Brevoort is imposed. Will be still 616 in the next issue of Web Warriors?
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  2. #77
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by resipsaloquitur View Post
    In a certain sense, I think Tom is wrong about the post-Crisis DCU. As I read those issues, the "main" DC Earth effectively was Earth-1, it just rolled the history of Earth-2 and a few other worlds into it. He's forgetting that 95% of what DC was publishing at the time was Earth-1 comics, and not much changed immediately after the Crisis. Byrne's reboot of Superman didn't come until about 6 months after Crisis was done, so the classic DC history still had a chance to wrap up, too.
    There were the All star Squadron and Infinity Inc. titles set in earth 2. And not sure but there seems there were others. But remember what was said, some changes will came under your nose and before you know it you will be asking yourselves what the hall happened. Just look at the Spidey title. Are you sure that isn't the new official past of Spider-man?

    Quote Originally Posted by resipsaloquitur View Post
    I don't think it does. Breevort seems to think it does, hence the insistence that it's "Prime Earth." Which is fine, but as far as many of us can tell, it's still 616 with some modifications to its history (which happens <I>all the time</I>). Hence, it's still "616" to a lot of us even if Marvel wants to officially label it as something else.
    But also had elements from others universes including Weirdworld and Miles Morales and co. Will the maker remember Morales from his previous life? Will Miles remember he lived in another universe? Questions, questions.
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  3. #78
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The comics I am talking about came before Thorpe and then after, during the Moore run. Thorpe made zero attempt to use any alternate version of Marvel stars, while Moore both brought the character back to the regular Marvel Earth within a couple of issues, THEN identified it as Earth-616 AND used Marvel US characters - not alternate versions. Potentially, based on what Alan D says, Thorpe's use of the multiverse might well have come out of Marvel UK editorial desire to use Marvel US characters which might in turn have been temporarily off limits, and Thorpe going alternate reality inspired Moore to use alternate realities too, but by the time Moore was writing the series, any such restrictions appear to have been long gone. The important point remains - 616 was always intended to be the main Marvel universe, not an alternate Marvel UK version.


    But intended by who??? Certainly not Marvel USA. It as strictly a Marvel UK invention, which no longer exists. Marvel UK had no editorial jurisdiction over Marvel so Marvel would not consider their books as in continuity of the Marvel USA books. They originally had the rights to print Marvel's stories and that was it. Later they were allowed to come up with original series. Marvel is getting rid of it 616 and and they have a right to do so. It was more or less sneaked in probably by Claremont at some point. Does anyone know the first time it was mentioned? Because i think it might have been Excalibur. Both Joe Q and Tom B say its never been official.

    Read the whole article I linked and they talk about Dave Thorpe coming up with it but not using it.

  4. #79
    File Clerk of MI13 The Sword is Drawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahhat View Post
    Actually I think Otherworld the home of the Captain Britain Corp is unofficially known as Earth 000. Because all Earths are but pale imitations of it. If you believe Merlin and Roma.

    Actually, no. Otherworld is not a version of Earth.

    It's more like a bubble of logic existing just at the periphery of every universe. While traditionally it was best accessed from the same physical point on every Earth it was not a facsimile of Earth itself.
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  5. #80
    File Clerk of MI13 The Sword is Drawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    But intended by who??? Certainly not Marvel USA. It as strictly a Marvel UK invention, which no longer exists. Marvel UK had no editorial jurisdiction over Marvel so Marvel would not consider their books as in continuity of the Marvel USA books. They originally had the rights to print Marvel's stories and that was it. Later they were allowed to come up with original series. Marvel is getting rid of it 616 and and they have a right to do so. It was more or less sneaked in probably by Claremont at some point. Does anyone know the first time it was mentioned? Because i think it might have been Excalibur. Both Joe Q and Tom B say its never been official.

    Read the whole article I linked and they talk about Dave Thorpe coming up with it but not using it.

    Whether Joe Q or Mr Brevoort like it or not, actual Marvel writers liked it a lot. It was embraced by creators.

    In truth though it was a numbering system which was used in Otherworld to chart and map the multiverse. And post Secret Wars will probably still be used by Otherworld. As far as they are concerned "Prime Earth" (or whatever editorial now want it to be called) will still likely remain 'Earth 616' in their numbering system.

    Personally, I've always thought that the idea of the Marvel Universe being just another Earth in billions, as opposed to some kind of prime, definitive, article was a key strength. Aping the naming conventions of DC Comics seems like a rather sad and unusual decision to have made.

    But, in all likelihood, it probably won't have any tangible effect on stories.
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  6. #81
    Astonishing Member legion_quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sword is Drawn View Post
    Whether Joe Q or Mr Brevoort like it or not, actual Marvel writers liked it a lot. It was embraced by creators.

    In truth though it was a numbering system which was used in Otherworld to chart and map the multiverse. And post Secret Wars will probably still be used by Otherworld. As far as they are concerned "Prime Earth" (or whatever editorial now want it to be called) will still likely remain 'Earth 616' in their numbering system.

    Personally, I've always thought that the idea of the Marvel Universe being just another Earth in billions, as opposed to some kind of prime, definitive, article was a key strength. Aping the naming conventions of DC Comics seems like a rather sad and unusual decision to have made.

    But, in all likelihood, it probably won't have any tangible effect on stories.
    I always saw it as interesting that it was apparently UK based writers that came up with the idea for the 616 and didnt put the main Marvel U as number. I always felt that it was such a British thing to do - just pick a random number and go with it, but don't be number 1 as that would be immodest.

    The whole 'we're number 1' thing seems so.....tacky; if you have to tell everyone you're number one, you aren't number one, being the 616 gave Marvel the feel that 'we dont have to be number one to be number one.' A stark contrast to DC.
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  7. #82
    Fantastic Member KingsLeadHat's Avatar
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    I refuse to recognize any universal numbering system related to Marvel. Marvel got along find for 30 years without any of that nonsense. I love Moore's stories, of course, but a throwaway reference like that shouldn't turn into an "official" label. Earth-1, 2, Prime, Zero, etc., should belong to DC. The difference in all this is that DC creators and editors actively promoted that system as soon as the concept crystallized.

  8. #83
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsLeadHat View Post
    I refuse to recognize any universal numbering system related to Marvel. Marvel got along find for 30 years without any of that nonsense. I love Moore's stories, of course, but a throwaway reference like that shouldn't turn into an "official" label. Earth-1, 2, Prime, Zero, etc., should belong to DC. The difference in all this is that DC creators and editors actively promoted that system as soon as the concept crystallized.
    QFT. This numbering was seldom if ever mentioned outside of the Exiles or Excalibur or some other minor reference. Those numbers are gone now as of the completion of the incursions and the aftermath of SW. As far as I'm concerned the Earth as created in the FF by Stan and Jack is the main Marvel Earth. It needs no number.

    I recall in the handbooks or somewhere they starting giving numbers to Earths that appear in What If stories. Essentially this makes them all copies of Marvel Earth.

  9. #84
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sword is Drawn View Post
    Whether Joe Q or Mr Brevoort like it or not, actual Marvel writers liked it a lot. It was embraced by creators.

    In truth though it was a numbering system which was used in Otherworld to chart and map the multiverse. And post Secret Wars will probably still be used by Otherworld. As far as they are concerned "Prime Earth" (or whatever editorial now want it to be called) will still likely remain 'Earth 616' in their numbering system.

    Personally, I've always thought that the idea of the Marvel Universe being just another Earth in billions, as opposed to some kind of prime, definitive, article was a key strength. Aping the naming conventions of DC Comics seems like a rather sad and unusual decision to have made.

    But, in all likelihood, it probably won't have any tangible effect on stories.
    We're not sure if Reed is even numbering the new universes at all. Why use just an impersonal number anyway? I always use names like Zombieverse or when Doom created on with his Infinity Gauntlet, it was called the Doomverse. Again, I have to repeat Stan and Jack's Earth is the root of it all as it should be. Not something fabricated by an obscure story in Marvel UK.

  10. #85
    Veteran Member resipsaloquitur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    We're not sure if Reed is even number the new universes at all. Why use just an impersonal number anyway? I always use names like Zombieverse or when Doom created on with his Infinity Gauntlet, it was called the Doomverse. Again, I have to repeat Stan and Jack's Earth is the root of it all as it should be. Not something fabricated by an obscure story in Marvel UK.
    One thing to consider is that there are multiple versions of similar universes. For example, with the Zombieverse, there's actually a few editions:

    - Earth 2149, the original Marvel Zombieverse.
    - The Earth from which Zombie Wolverine came in his two-issue Exiles appearance
    - Earth-Z, which was a Marvel Universe that became infected by the zombies from Earth-2149
    - Whichever Earth was the basis for the Deadlands in Secret Wars
    - Multiple spinoff realities from Earth-2149 that resulted from the time-travel shenanigans in Marvel Apes.

    Having just a bunch of "name" designations for these realities is less clean than you'd like.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sword is Drawn View Post

    Personally, I've always thought that the idea of the Marvel Universe being just another Earth in billions, as opposed to some kind of prime, definitive, article was a key strength. Aping the naming conventions of DC Comics seems like a rather sad and unusual decision to have made.
    That's my feeling exactly. Marvel being dimension 616 made it the Peter Parker of dimensions. I really, really liked it being the Peter Parker of dimensions. Making Marvel into the prime universe reeks of the kind of DC thinking Marvel usually mocks.

  12. #87
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by resipsaloquitur View Post
    One thing to consider is that there are multiple versions of similar universes. For example, with the Zombieverse, there's actually a few editions:

    - Earth 2149, the original Marvel Zombieverse.
    - The Earth from which Zombie Wolverine came in his two-issue Exiles appearance
    - Earth-Z, which was a Marvel Universe that became infected by the zombies from Earth-2149
    - Whichever Earth was the basis for the Deadlands in Secret Wars
    - Multiple spinoff realities from Earth-2149 that resulted from the time-travel shenanigans in Marvel Apes.

    Having just a bunch of "name" designations for these realities is less clean than you'd like.
    Yeah, but I think it's a bit anal retentive to need to number every alternate universe even if it only appears in one story.

    The people that live there don't know their number so who should it matter to? It's like when the Europeans explored the New World and started giving names to lands that the natives already had their own names.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Yeah, but I think it's a bit anal retentive to need to number every alternate universe even if it only appears in one story.

    The people that live there don't know their number so who should it matter to? It's like when the Europeans explored the New World and started giving names to lands that the natives already had their own names.
    I agree... it's not really all that important to me to have a number associated with a particular universe. Storylines tend to dictate where a character came from. Attributing a random number to some new universe really doesn't mean anything since, from the perspective of those characters, their universe is number 1.

    Imagine Spider-Man going to another universe and actually saying -- I'm from universe 616 -- to someone from universe 5? It's laughable.

  14. #89
    Incredible Member joebleau's Avatar
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    since 616 was about the time Fantastic Four came out ( June 1961) and the end of secret wars was January 2016 maybe it will be Earth- 161 ?

  15. #90
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAS View Post
    I agree... it's not really all that important to me to have a number associated with a particular universe. Storylines tend to dictate where a character came from. Attributing a random number to some new universe really doesn't mean anything since, from the perspective of those characters, their universe is number 1.

    Imagine Spider-Man going to another universe and actually saying -- I'm from universe 616 -- to someone from universe 5? It's laughable.
    Exactly,. The numbers could mean different things to every universe. Let's say the Celestials had some other identifiers. IMO there's no reason for the Watchers to use the same number as Roma or whoever in the UK comics was doing it. The Watcher was around to witness the birth of Galactus and have been recording things for billions of years. IIRC Galactus and the Watchers predate the Big Bang. I doubt the Captain Britain Corps goes back that far.

    Quote Originally Posted by joebleau View Post
    since 616 was about the time Fantastic Four came out ( June 1961) and the end of secret wars was January 2016 maybe it will be Earth- 161 ?
    I'd like the sound of the Kirbyverse but I'd throw in Stan Lee and Steve Ditko somehow. KirLeeKo Universe? LOL.

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