Is Earth-001 the designation of the post Secret Wars marvel Earth?

[Loki]

But intended by who??? Certainly not Marvel USA. It as strictly a Marvel UK invention, which no longer exists. Marvel UK had no editorial jurisdiction over Marvel so Marvel would not consider their books as in continuity of the Marvel USA books.

Did Marvel UK have editorial jurisdiction to force Marvel US to consider their books as part of the continuity of the US books? No, of course not. However, did the US books consider them part of the continuity? Yes, without question. Before the Thorpe/Davis and Moore/Davis run you had Captain Britain turn up in Marvel Team-Up and had his origin and history from the UK comic confirmed as part of the US continuity. When Captain Britain next appeared in a UK title, a story where he co-starred with the Black Knight, his appearance followed on directly from that US appearance, referencing his flight home over the Atlantic. Just as the Moore run was getting underway, Marvel US acknowledged the Black Knight/Captain Britain story was being confirmed as part of US continuity by dint of the Knight turning up in Avengers in the same costume and with the same steed that he had previously only had in the UK story. The UK stories have always been part of the overal

They originally had the rights to print Marvel's stories and that was it. Later they were allowed to come up with original series.

You make it sound like they were some licensee. They weren't. They were another branch of Marvel. There had been licensees for Marvel in the UK prior to Marvel UK being set up, but Marvel eventually decided the market was too lucrative to just let someone else reprint Marvel's stories.

Marvel is getting rid of it 616 and and they have a right to do so. It was more or less sneaked in probably by Claremont at some point.

Sneaked in? You make it sound like he cunningly tried to hide it from the bosses. Hardly. He probably was the first to use the term in a US title, but it has been used multiple times by other creators.

Does anyone know the first time it was mentioned? Because i think it might have been Excalibur. Both Joe Q and Tom B say its never been official.

They might not have liked it, but it was official. It got used too many times by too many writers to be considered as just some "fan thing" by anyone who isn't blinded by an irrational dislike of the terminology. Heck, it was so official that when Marvel decided to celebrate Captain America's 70th Anniversary, which issue did they do it with? Captain America #616. If they'd wanted to celebrate it exactly 70 years after the first Captain America appearance, then they should have done the celebration in the March 2011 issue, which was 614, but instead they delayed the celebration issue to 616. That's not coincidence.

Read the whole article I linked and they talk about Dave Thorpe coming up with it but not using it.

I have read the whole article, and it is clear that Alan Moore and Alan Davis have different recollections as to who came up with the term. Given the evidence, I have little doubt Moore is the one recalling things correctly.

[Loki]

I recall in the handbooks or somewhere they starting giving numbers to Earths that appear in What If stories. Essentially this makes them all copies of Marvel Earth.

What If #1 made it clear that the What If worlds were as "real" as any other alternate reality already seen in Marvel, with the Watcher comparing them to timelines of the Guardians of the Galaxy, Deathlok, Killraven, Squadron Supreme and others, including the one where Spider-Man and Superman co-existed. Quasar #8 showed the Living Laser break into the Watcher's citadel and enter the alternate reality depicted in What If #9, arriving in the middle of the story that issue was showing.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources...what-if-cameo/

Characters who had only appeared previously in What If turned up in Avengers Forever, and much more recently in Spiderverse. So, since these realities are just as valid as any other numbered reality, why would they not have their own numbers?

[Loki]

We're not sure if Reed is even numbering the new universes at all. Why use just an impersonal number anyway? I always use names like Zombieverse or when Doom created on with his Infinity Gauntlet, it was called the Doomverse.

The trouble with names like that is that you frequently end up with multiple realities all using the same name. New Universe? Got at least three of those. To paraphrase the explanation the Marvel handbooks gave for numbering realities:

While some timelines could be briefly distinguished using the names of the series or imprint they originated from (Earth X, Earth MC2, Earth Mutant X), many more cannot. There are two distinct Earth 2099A.D.s. More importantly, some alternate timeline characters have multiple distinct versions running around; Killraven for example (his original series, the version seen in Avengers Forever, the version from his 2004 mini-series, and possibly the one who traveled to Earth X), or Hyperion (the Squadron Supreme version, the Supreme Power version, the evil Exiles version, the Earth-616 version and the older version who traveled to Earth X). By providing a designator number with any such character, a reader can know that if the designator matches, it is the same Killraven / Hyperion.

Again, I have to repeat Stan and Jack's Earth is the root of it all as it should be. Not something fabricated by an obscure story in Marvel UK.

I'd agree that they are the main architects of the early Marvel universe, but suggesting that if they didn't originate something then it doesn't count wipes out every story since their time. And "fabricated"? You mean unlike all the other stories that were based on real events?

[Loki]

since 616 was about the time Fantastic Four came out ( June 1961) and the end of secret wars was January 2016 maybe it will be Earth- 161 ?

Except that FF #1 came out much later in the year, nowhere near June. That was a fan theory about where the original number came from, which despite its popularity never held up under scrutiny, and which was subsequently debunked, because whether you believe Alan Moore or Alan Davis is the one recalling the origin of the term correctly, they both agree it wasn't based on the time the Fantastic Four came out.

[Loki]

IMO there's no reason for the Watchers to use the same number as Roma or whoever in the UK comics was doing it. The Watcher was around to witness the birth of Galactus and have been recording things for billions of years. IIRC Galactus and the Watchers predate the Big Bang.

You recall incorrectly - Galactus predates the Big Bang, but not the Watchers. And as noted already, the Watchers do use the same number. You assume that the Watchers are using Roma's numbering system, but overlook the possibility that it is the other way around, or the option that both are using a system originally laid out by another, even higher power, such as the Celestials.

[Iron Maiden]

You recall incorrectly - Galactus predates the Big Bang, but not the Watchers. And as noted already, the Watchers do use the same number. You assume that the Watchers are using Roma's numbering system, but overlook the possibility that it is the other way around, or the option that both are using a system originally laid out by another, even higher power, such as the Celestials.

The Watchers predate Galactus according to his origin since they witnessed his transformation after his home planet died. But that could be splitting hairs since Galactus's birth as a new being was witnessed by the Watchers and prior to that he was a humanoid known as Galen. I'll have to check and see how old the Watchers were but I seem to recall a story where they witnessed the Big Bang. Of course one story says it keeps repeating and Franklin and Galactus will be around for the next one.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

Captain America # 616
The custodians of the original 616 Marvel Universe did a godawful job between 2004-2015, but I certainly appreciate this respect towards the original 616 Marvel Universe!

[WestPhillyPunisher]

How about Earth-NFL (Not For Long), because there's bound to be yet another ridiculous cosmic event that will change the Marvel Universe again.

[Loki]

The Watchers predate Galactus according to his origin since they witnessed his transformation after his home planet died. But that could be splitting hairs since Galactus's birth as a new being was witnessed by the Watchers and prior to that he was a humanoid known as Galen. I'll have to check and see how old the Watchers were but I seem to recall a story where they witnessed the Big Bang. Of course one story says it keeps repeating and Franklin and Galactus will be around for the next one.

The Watchers pre-date Galen waking up as Galactus, but not the Big Bang. He was the only being known to have survived from the previous iteration of the universe, before the modern one was born in the Big Bang.

[AnonymousODG]

Brevoort said than it was Web Warriors who got it wrong. It will be interesting to read the next issue and see if the will of Brevoort is imposed. Will be still 616 in the next issue of Web Warriors?

Meh, Brevoort also said Marvel: The End wasn't canon and Starlin's done like three separate stories continuing that storyline. I can appreciate Breevort wanting to run a tight ship but in the end, what's actually published ends up having more resonance than editorial fiats with fans. He's not even the editor of Web Warriors.

[Iron Maiden]

Meh, Brevoort also said Marvel: The End wasn't canon and Starlin's done like three separate stories continuing that storyline. I can appreciate Breevort wanting to run a tight ship but in the end, what's actually published ends up having more resonance than editorial fiats with fans. He's not even the editor of Web Warriors.

Yeah but he's held the title of VP of publishing for a while now and prior to that Executive Editor. He's about as high as you can go before you get to Axel Alonso and Joe Q. And Joe Q wanted to get rid of 616 also.

[Iron Maiden]

Did Marvel UK have editorial jurisdiction to force Marvel US to consider their books as part of the continuity of the US books? No, of course not. However, did the US books consider them part of the continuity? Yes, without question. Before the Thorpe/Davis and Moore/Davis run you had Captain Britain turn up in Marvel Team-Up and had his origin and history from the UK comic confirmed as part of the US continuity. When Captain Britain next appeared in a UK title, a story where he co-starred with the Black Knight, his appearance followed on directly from that US appearance, referencing his flight home over the Atlantic. Just as the Moore run was getting underway, Marvel US acknowledged the Black Knight/Captain Britain story was being confirmed as part of US continuity by dint of the Knight turning up in Avengers in the same costume and with the same steed that he had previously only had in the UK story. The UK stories have always been part of the overal


You make it sound like they were some licensee. They weren't. They were another branch of Marvel. There had been licensees for Marvel in the UK prior to Marvel UK being set up, but Marvel eventually decided the market was too lucrative to just let someone else reprint Marvel's stories.

Sneaked in? You make it sound like he cunningly tried to hide it from the bosses. Hardly. He probably was the first to use the term in a US title, but it has been used multiple times by other creators.



They might not have liked it, but it was official. It got used too many times by too many writers to be considered as just some "fan thing" by anyone who isn't blinded by an irrational dislike of the terminology. Heck, it was so official that when Marvel decided to celebrate Captain America's 70th Anniversary, which issue did they do it with? Captain America #616. If they'd wanted to celebrate it exactly 70 years after the first Captain America appearance, then they should have done the celebration in the March 2011 issue, which was 614, but instead they delayed the celebration issue to 616. That's not coincidence.


I have read the whole article, and it is clear that Alan Moore and Alan Davis have different recollections as to who came up with the term. Given the evidence, I have little doubt Moore is the one recalling things correctly.

Yes but the author of the article doesn't and Alan Davis' memories of it are a lot more detailed than Moore's who came on the title later. I vote for Davis's version over your opinion since he actually worked for the company involved.

By sneaked in I meant that Claremont probably started using it as a shoutout to the Marvel UK stuff that probably no one in the US would even get since it was never available over here. Ultimately Marvel will back the SW outcome as canon and there's nothing you can do do change it. 616 is gone.

[The Sword is Drawn]

I always saw it as interesting that it was apparently UK based writers that came up with the idea for the 616 and didnt put the main Marvel U as number. I always felt that it was such a British thing to do - just pick a random number and go with it, but don't be number 1 as that would be immodest.

The whole 'we're number 1' thing seems so.....tacky; if you have to tell everyone you're number one, you aren't number one, being the 616 gave Marvel the feel that 'we dont have to be number one to be number one.' A stark contrast to DC.

That's pretty much exactly how I feel about it. I feel it's totally in step with Marvel's tone. One of Marvel's key strengths over DC, for me, is that by and large it's a more plausible 'average joe' kind of universe. Barring a few anomalies (Wakanda, Madripoor etc) it's basically an analogue of our own Earth, with real locations and not a plethora of of fake Cities and Countries. It's ordinary. It's grounded. The characters and settings are more plausible, and believable.

When editorial starts embracing anything which seems more 'DC' in its tone I start to get twitchy about it.

I refuse to recognize any universal numbering system related to Marvel. Marvel got along find for 30 years without any of that nonsense. I love Moore's stories, of course, but a throwaway reference like that shouldn't turn into an "official" label. Earth-1, 2, Prime, Zero, etc., should belong to DC. The difference in all this is that DC creators and editors actively promoted that system as soon as the concept crystallized.

I'm a little confused here. You say you dislike those labels, and yet that is exactly what Marvel are doing by insisting the Marvel Universe is now labelled "The Prime Earth".

We're not sure if Reed is even numbering the new universes at all. Why use just an impersonal number anyway? I always use names like Zombieverse or when Doom created on with his Infinity Gauntlet, it was called the Doomverse. Again, I have to repeat Stan and Jack's Earth is the root of it all as it should be. Not something fabricated by an obscure story in Marvel UK.

Oh get off you're high horse about Marvel UK...

When whoever it actually was (there's still debate over whether Moore came up with the "616" number or whether it was Dave Thorpe) came up with that number it wasn't to do with any attempt to stamp authority on US comics.

It was a plot point. Effectively just a barcode for the universe, referred to only by those who policed the Multiverse from afar. It was part of a story. Nothing more.

The reason that the term was embraced beyond that is purely that Creators liked the idea, and began using it throughout other stories. And Editors had no objection to that, that we know of, until relatively recently.

That's my feeling exactly. Marvel being dimension 616 made it the Peter Parker of dimensions. I really, really liked it being the Peter Parker of dimensions. Making Marvel into the prime universe reeks of the kind of DC thinking Marvel usually mocks.

I completely agree. It's not in-keeping with the tone of Marvel Comics. It seems distinctly artificial.

[MajorHoy]

How about Earth-NFL . . .

Isn't that already taken?

[Iron Maiden]

Oh get off you're high horse about Marvel UK...

When whoever it actually was (there's still debate over whether Moore came up with the "616" number or whether it was Dave Thorpe) came up with that number it wasn't to do with any attempt to stamp authority on US comics.

It was a plot point. Effectively just a barcode for the universe, referred to only by those who policed the Multiverse from afar. It was part of a story. Nothing more.

The reason that the term was embraced beyond that is purely that Creators liked the idea, and began using it throughout other stories. And Editors had no objection to that, that we know of, until relatively recently.

But it was not embraced by all of them because I can tell you first of all, I don't read the X titles. I had been on a comic book hiatus for a while but started picking up books again in the mid 1990s. Long story short, the X-titles seemed like a confusing mess and there was a glut of them. I just stuck with by old faves like the FF because it seemed that it was easier to pick up some back issues and catch up. I can't recall where Tom DeFalco or the Heroes Reborn stuff even used any numbers. Again, why should Marvel UK impact Marvel USA when none of those comics were sold at comic shops in the USA. Then the internet comes along and that creates a global fan community. Some started talking about 616 but there were a lot here at CBR (I've been here through at least two MB reboots) at the time that didn't know what the hell they were talking about.

I believe the handbooks first started number different realities but IMO that's a different shade of things from different Earths. They seemed more like alternate timelines of our Earth. For example Byrne's What If where the FF had no powers or something like that. The Time Variance Authority, a creation of Walt Simonson, was brought up earlier as an example of using 616. But I posted an early appearance of the TVA in Simonson's FF were they were using no such numbers as Marvel UK. The measure things differently, as noted in the panel where one of the monitors mentions timeline 0257/9023. Admittedly, this is all getting a bit murkly since Marvel Earth itself can have many timelines.

I completely agree. It's not in-keeping with the tone of Marvel Comics. It seems distinctly artificial.

IMO the numbering is completely artificial. No one seems to agree here who started the numbers either. The Watchers, who've been around eons longer than the Captain Britain corps? And why would a different civilization use the name numbering system as Earth, the one based on Indo-arabic numerals?