Is Earth-001 the designation of the post Secret Wars marvel Earth?

[Loki]

Yes but the author of the article doesn't and Alan Davis' memories of it are a lot more detailed than Moore's who came on the title later.

A lot more detailed? Only in that Moore wasn't asked for more details - he was answering a simple question, "how did you come up with the number 616?"

I vote for Davis's version over your opinion since he actually worked for the company involved.

As was Moore at the time, so this reply makes no sense. And again, we are now having to decide between two conflicting accounts, but one where all the actual evidence backs Moore, not Davis. The 616 name was not used until Moore had been writing the story for over a year. When Thorpe was writing the story, it was not even set on the Marvel Earth, nor had Thorpe any intention of bringing Captain Britain back there any time during his run, so why would he choose a name for it anyway. Nor did he use a number to identify the world Captain Britain was on - that came later, again during Moore's run. Ah, some try to claim, Thorpe came up with the idea of picking numbers for the realities and hence picked 616 but never got round to naming any realities; except that he did get round to identifying realities during his run, and used a different method of naming them - specifically, he identified one reality as Earth Green Alpha One. That's nothing like the purely numberical system used when Moore was writing.

By sneaked in I meant that Claremont probably started using it as a shoutout to the Marvel UK stuff that probably no one in the US would even get since it was never available over here.

Again, why should Marvel UK impact Marvel USA when none of those comics were sold at comic shops in the USA. Then the internet comes along and that creates a global fan community. Some started talking about 616 but there were a lot here at CBR (I've been here through at least two MB reboots) at the time that didn't know what the hell they were talking about.

Okay, so you don't like the term because it didn't originate in a comic you read, and more to the point, one which was printed overseas. Fair enough, but that's your personal bias. And you are right, the powers in charge of Marvel can pick whatever term they want to be the current official one. Neither you nor they need to use 616. That won't stop any of us who want to use it from continuing to do so however, because it is the same timeline it was before SW, bar a few tweaks caused by the temporary overlapping with other realities. Hardly the first time that has happened.

I believe the handbooks first started number different realities but IMO that's a different shade of things from different Earths.

No, I'd say that's pretty much the same thing.

The Time Variance Authority, a creation of Walt Simonson, was brought up earlier as an example of using 616. But I posted an early appearance of the TVA in Simonson's FF were they were using no such numbers as Marvel UK. The measure things differently, as noted in the panel where one of the monitors mentions timeline 0257/9023.

"They were using no such numbers. And here's them using a number to identify a timeline." As stated, we've seen them use the same Earth numbering system that the Corps and Watchers use. So either they later adopted their use, or else the numbers referenced here are a more specific reference, like a map grid reference, only in their case pinpointing a specific time period within a given reality.

Admittedly, this is all getting a bit murkly since Marvel Earth itself can have many timelines.

Yes, because the "Prime Earth", Squadron Supreme Earth(s), Zombieverse(s), etc are ALL Marvel Earths. Maybe we need a way to easily distinguish between them? How about numbering them?

IMO the numbering is completely artificial.

Absolutely. Did you think someone had dug up the ground and discovered the numbers were secretly engraved into the world's bedrock? Numbering worlds is artificial. So is numbering roads, but we still do it, to help keep track of which road is which.

No one seems to agree here who started the numbers either.

No disagreement - just no information on who started them. We simply know that multiple groups who might be considered authorities on alternate timelines use the same system as one another.

The Watchers, who've been around eons longer than the Captain Britain corps? And why would a different civilization use the name numbering system as Earth, the one based on Indo-arabic numerals?

Presumably we're getting the translated version of the equivalent numbers in their native tongues.

[ImprobableQuestion]

Captain America # 616
The custodians of the original 616 Marvel Universe did a godawful job between 2004-2015, but I certainly appreciate this respect towards the original 616 Marvel Universe!

I'm glad you've enjoyed how they're handling the original Marvel Universe so far in 2016.

[QBall]

But it was not embraced by all of them because I can tell you first of all, I don't read the X titles. I had been on a comic book hiatus for a while but started picking up books again in the mid 1990s. Long story short, the X-titles seemed like a confusing mess and there was a glut of them. I just stuck with by old faves like the FF because it seemed that it was easier to pick up some back issues and catch up. I can't recall where Tom DeFalco or the Heroes Reborn stuff even used any numbers. Again, why should Marvel UK impact Marvel USA when none of those comics were sold at comic shops in the USA. Then the internet comes along and that creates a global fan community. Some started talking about 616 but there were a lot here at CBR (I've been here through at least two MB reboots) at the time that didn't know what the hell they were talking about.

The stories may not have seen print in the US at the same time as they were originally released in the UK but they were readily available in the US market in the mid 90s.

28524_20060211061754_large.jpg

[Thor-Ul]

I don't remember but it seems than in Excalibur vol.1 the 616 concept was frecuently used.That could be tha best brigde.

[The Sword is Drawn]

But it was not embraced by all of them because I can tell you first of all, I don't read the X titles. I had been on a comic book hiatus for a while but started picking up books again in the mid 1990s. Long story short, the X-titles seemed like a confusing mess and there was a glut of them. I just stuck with by old faves like the FF because it seemed that it was easier to pick up some back issues and catch up. I can't recall where Tom DeFalco or the Heroes Reborn stuff even used any numbers.

So, essentially what you are saying is that these numbers didn't appear in any of the books (which were few and far between) which you read. Therefore, to your mind, that means they weren't a thing?

You've surely got realise that this is a flawed augment.

To reference a period you have mentioned if you were reading around the time of Heroes Return, I'm pretty sure that post-Heroes Reborn the numbering you claim not to have encountered was being used on Fantastic Four. During that Chris Claremont run (which followed a short run by Alan Davis) the exact characters and concepts you seem so violently opposed to were commonplace on Fantastic Four. Roma, the Captain Britain Corps, the lot.

So I don't know? Are you selectively remembering things or have you just not been reading many books over the last couple of decades? Either way this doesn't invalidate anything. Other than a rather key point in your argument, here.

Again, why should Marvel UK impact Marvel USA when none of those comics were sold at comic shops in the USA.

Oh, good grief. Where to begin with a comment like that...?

Firstly, let me reiterate, Marvel UK (though a fully functioning office of Marvel Comics Ltd) were at no point trying to enforce their Will upon the rest of the business. They were just telling stories. Some of which were great, some less so, just like the rest of Marvel Comics.

It was not Marvel UK who asked or suggested that this numbering system be adopted in any way. That was the choice of US based writers, who chose to reference that numbering system in their work. Why? Possibly because nobody at Marvel had ever thought to create one before, and as the 80s, 90s and beyond started telling more stories involving Time Travel and Alternate Universes it became practical to have such a system. One which would eventually be used by the Official Marvel Handbooks also.

Yes, we all know that a couple of senior editors have stated that they personally disliked this system, in the modern age. But weirdly seemed to have not noticed that writers or handbooks were using the system until relatively recently. That strikes me as far more odd. How they did not realise this had been adopted for as long as it had.

You are incorrect however, in saying that "none of those comics were sold at comic shops in the USA". The Moore and Davis Captain Britain stories which US writers referenced were sold in US, in monthly installments, in the 1990s. The Marvel UK imprint of the early 90s was also sold in US stores. Because it was just that. An imprint of Marvel Comics. Just like Marvel Knights. Or MAX. Or Tsunami.

This was an imprint of in-continuity comic books sold to US comic stores. Granted you may not have read either of these. But that does not mean that they did not exist. It was just a gap in your reading knowledge of Marvel's published work.

Then the internet comes along and that creates a global fan community. Some started talking about 616 but there were a lot here at CBR (I've been here through at least two MB reboots) at the time that didn't know what the hell they were talking about.

Yes. Because obviously this is the Internet's fault. How dare it try to discuss something which has already been established canon for years. What a terrible thing to do.

I believe the handbooks first started number different realities but IMO that's a different shade of things from different Earths. They seemed more like alternate timelines of our Earth. For example Byrne's What If where the FF had no powers or something like that. The Time Variance Authority, a creation of Walt Simonson, was brought up earlier as an example of using 616. But I posted an early appearance of the TVA in Simonson's FF were they were using no such numbers as Marvel UK. The measure things differently, as noted in the panel where one of the monitors mentions timeline 0257/9023. Admittedly, this is all getting a bit murkly since Marvel Earth itself can have many timelines.

Ah, you see the problem there is that you are thinking of alternate timelines and alternate universes as separate things. Marvel Comics do not.

I mean in other media, at other companies, sure. They are separate things. But a long time back now Marvel Editorial decided that both were to be considered one and the same.

Why? Because if every alternate timeline (Days of Future Past, the Age of Apocalypse, 2099 etc) is to be considered a separate universe it is far easier to continue revisiting those timelines to write further stories. Otherwise:

Days of Future Past never came to pass, because of the resolution of the story.

The Age of Apocalypse winked out of existence, because of the resolution of the story.

Logically, they're done. Never to be seen again.

But at the same point maybe Marvel might want to revisit the worlds created by those stories? As separate universes, they can.

This is not a new thing. This is not some marvel of the internet age. It's an old school editorial decision. Long since made and adopted.

IMO the numbering is completely artificial.

Yes. In the same way that a road sign or a town name is artificial. The universe hasn't put those things in place. We as human beings do. Why? Because they are functional. They aid us in describing and differentiating between one thing and another.

For The Captain Britain Corps, the Time Variance Authority, the Time Broker, the eXiles, The Time Guardian, Mys-Tech this is system which comes in damned handy for logging and navigating the Multiverse.

It's like stamping a barcode on each universe. Logging an entry in a database.

Yes. Nature didn't give them those names. But neither did nature give your street it's name. Men did.

No one seems to agree here who started the numbers either.

And it's not really relevant. Do we need to know? When so many people use a system it just becomes part of life. Is it really essential that we know how it began?

The Watchers, who've been around eons longer than the Captain Britain corps? And why would a different civilization use the name numbering system as Earth, the one based on Indo-arabic numerals?

Who knows? Life is just stuffed full of strange coincidences. If a system works, it works. Why has most of the world adopted either Spanish or English as a Language? It just happened. Does that mean we should demand that everybody stop doing that immediately, and learn another language?

[Iron Maiden]

Not going to answer thing point by point except to say

Joe Q and Tom B have not just recently started noticing the 616. It's been talked about for a while. There was a blog on the old Marvel Site about before they redesigned it.

Editorial houses are not always on the same page. One example is how the X titles pretty much derailed the Black Panther/Storm marriage by showing discord in the marriage I was reading Dwayne McDuffie's run after CW when they took Reed and Sue's place for a number of issues and there was none there or in Black Panther.

Not all LCSs would have the UK comics....only if there were a demand to order them. I don't remember seeing them but then our area just as small shops.

Marvel Earth's residents should call it whatever they want. Just like the example I used earlier of European explorers naming lands for which the natives had their own names. Wherever 616 source is, it just belongs to that group. In the RW, if there were a civilization in another galaxy that cataloged Earth by some other name/number, we'd still have the right to call our home planet Earth. Their name would be irrelevant to us.

[Loki]

Not going to answer thing point by point

Because you can't. You keep saying stuff like "none of those [Marvel UK] comics were sold at comic shops in the USA" which other posters them demonstrate to be factually inaccurate (those Marvel UK stories were sold at US comic shops) and / or irrelevant.

Joe Q and Tom B have not just recently started noticing the 616. It's been talked about for a while. There was a blog on the old Marvel Site about before they redesigned it.

Yes, they've been open about their dislike of it for a long time. However, it's been equally evident that many writers were perfectly happy to use the term.

Editorial houses are not always on the same page. One example is how the X titles pretty much derailed the Black Panther/Storm marriage by showing discord in the marriage I was reading Dwayne McDuffie's run after CW when they took Reed and Sue's place for a number of issues and there was none there or in Black Panther.

I'm not sure that it is fair to say that the X titles derailed the marriage, so much as that once editorial decided the marriage was going to end, the X titles then handled ending it. But let's say you are right on this - then you've just proven that it doesn't matter what Tom B says about not using 616, because the writers can derail any such editorial fiat if they persist in using the term. In which case, go Web Warriors!

Not all LCSs would have the UK comics....only if there were a demand to order them. I don't remember seeing them but then our area just as small shops.

So if your shops failed to carry a given title, then anything introduced in that title should never be used in any other Marvel title?

Marvel Earth's residents should call it whatever they want. Just like the example I used earlier of European explorers naming lands for which the natives had their own names. Wherever 616 source is, it just belongs to that group. In the RW, if there were a civilization in another galaxy that cataloged Earth by some other name/number, we'd still have the right to call our home planet Earth. Their name would be irrelevant to us.

Yes, the residents can call it anything they like. Which means that those who don't know will call it a variety of names. Those who knew of the system used by the Corps will presumably keep using that system. Some might call it Prime Earth, if they know that it was the first recreated after the incursions - but how many people would that be? And, more to the point, pretty much every other reality will presumably stick to calling it Earth-616. Prime Earth is too egotistical for anyone not from there to want to use. It's like a country in the real world renaming itself "Most Important Country in World" - people from anywhere else on the planet would laugh themselves silly, and then continue to use the old name.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

Isn't that already taken?

Touche! I had forgotten all about that. And with good reason too!

[Iron Maiden]

Because you can't. You keep saying stuff like "none of those [Marvel UK] comics were sold at comic shops in the USA" which other posters them demonstrate to be factually inaccurate (those Marvel UK stories were sold at US comic shops) and / or irrelevant.

So I checked at the Comic Chronicles which is one of the few sites you can find sales figures from past decades. The first mention of a Captain Britain Classics #1 has it ranked at #251 for the month of May 1995. The following month was X-Men Archives Captain Britain ranked #212 for June of 1995. Hardly a very widely circulated title if over 200 titles ranked higher on order. So I would rank it's presence in the US market as pretty obscure. And that would be 20 years ago.

So if your shops failed to carry a given title, then anything introduced in that title should never be used in any other Marvel title?

If it is a reprint from an imprint that was never considered canon in Marvel USA, yes. The Marvel UK titles was not telling stories for the Marvel USA audience who would have had them available for purchase.

Yes, the residents can call it anything they like. Which means that those who don't know will call it a variety of names. Those who knew of the system used by the Corps will presumably keep using that system. Some might call it Prime Earth, if they know that it was the first recreated after the incursions - but how many people would that be? And, more to the point, pretty much every other reality will presumably stick to calling it Earth-616.

Just who would be sticking to this naming convention? Why would every reality even know about it? There's not a steady stream of traffic going back and forth between them.

Prime Earth is too egotistical for anyone not from there to want to use. It's like a country in the real world renaming itself "Most Important Country in World" - people from anywhere else on the planet would laugh themselves silly, and then continue to use the old name.

IMO Earth Prime is appropriate in a meta sense because again I am going back to the MU that Stan and Jack created. Everything else is secondary to it.

[The Sword is Drawn]

Not going to answer thing point by point except to say

Well, I will. Because I sense that you're intent on trying to dismiss the issues discussed in that post, rather than actually acknowledge them. It doesn't mean that they aren't valid, just because you choose not to acknowledge them.

Joe Q and Tom B have not just recently started noticing the 616. It's been talked about for a while. There was a blog on the old Marvel Site about before they redesigned it.

Yes. There was. I recall the blog post in question. But I will still class anything with the last decade as relatively recent in the grand scheme of things. The term Earth 616 (or the shortcodes for any other universe, for that matter) has existed since the 1980s, and been used here and there ever since.

Every month? No. But where writers have wanted to, they have. And where they have used it it has been correct for them to do so. Ultimately they are the creators, if they put it in panel it becomes Canon.

Editorial houses are not always on the same page.

Agreed. Although Marvel UK and Marvel US did regularly communicate with each other. There was regular consultation on the UK originated material. It was in-continuity, after all. And the US office was keen to have Marvel UK maintain certain standards which suited Marvel comics.

For example the US office did raise concerns with the first run of Knights of Pendragon. There was an issue in which Captain Britain does, at least at face value, beat the living crap out of an unpowered individual (Dai Thomas). To the point were it certainly looks as if he may have killed him. He's bloodied and bruised.

The US office raised concern over showing a hero doing this. This was back in the days when superheroes didn't do this kind of thing. In the age before grim and gritty stories, there was a concern over how this portrayed Captain Britain, who was still appearing monthly in the US Excalibur title, remember.

They were talked around to it because both characters were, in reality, possessed by the Spirits of former Knight of Pendragon. These were not their actions. This was a replaying of a fight that had occurred before. Plausibly several times over the centuries. A fight between Lancelot and Gawain.

The intention was also to show that when possessed by these spirits both individuals were physically changed. Dai didnot die.

So the issue saw print. But it was not the only time that Marvel US weren't comfortable with a story.

Funnily enough though? They never raised any complaint that we know of with the naming of 'Earth 616'...

One example is how the X titles pretty much derailed the Black Panther/Storm marriage by showing discord in the marriage I was reading Dwayne McDuffie's run after CW when they took Reed and Sue's place for a number of issues and there was none there or in Black Panther.

As far as I was aware the end of that marriage was editorially mandated. The X-Books just carried out the request. As to why? You'd only be able to speculate really. One could guess at Marvel wishing to sever X-Men ties from a character they planned to use in movie projects. But who can say?

I agree with Loki here though, if we were to take your comment as Fact then it does cancel out your own line of argument, here. If writers can just wrote what they want then an editorial request to abandon the term 'Earth 616' is worth nothing. If the writers wish to use it still, they will.

Not all LCSs would have the UK comics....only if there were a demand to order them. I don't remember seeing them but then our area just as small shops.

That doesn't mean that they aren't part of the publishing line. It doesn't mean they aren't canon. At the height of the imprint Marvel Comics were putting out over 10 Marvel UK imprint books per month. Whether or not your own local store stocked them is irrelevant. Marvel Comics published them.

My own local store never seemed to stock the last run of X-Factor. Or the last run of Thunderbolts. They stopped stocking the lat run of New Mutants half way through. By your logic here I would be quite within my rights to claim that none of those stories ever happened?

Of course not. What nonsense.

Marvel Earth's residents should call it whatever they want. Just like the example I used earlier of European explorers naming lands for which the natives had their own names.

Nobody is stopping them from doing this.

Wherever 616 source is, it just belongs to that group. In the RW, if there were a civilization in another galaxy that cataloged Earth by some other name/number, we'd still have the right to call our home planet Earth. Their name would be irrelevant to us.

Yes. Just as "Prime Earth" will be utterly irrelevant to every other universe that isn't the central Marvel Universe. If you came from a parallel Earth why would you call another world, other than your own, the "Prime Earth" you wouldn't.

And no multiversal organisation would ever use it. They'll use their own system. Which is going to remain the same as it ever was.

[The Sword is Drawn]

So I checked at the Comic Chronicles which is one of the few sites you can find sales figures from past decades. The first mention of a Captain Britain Classics #1 has it ranked at #251 for the month of May 1995. The following month was X-Men Archives Captain Britain ranked #212 for June of 1995. Hardly a very widely circulated title if over 200 titles ranked higher on order. So I would rank it's presence in the US market as pretty obscure. And that would be 20 years ago.

How is sales in any way relevant to canon?

Seriously.

Sure, you wouldn't really expect a title reprinting stories which those who wanted to read them probably purchased through import already to be tremendously high, but that not really the point.

Let me spell this out, once again. Because I don't think it's going in, clearly.

If a publisher publishes a Comic Book, telling a story set in its shared universe, it becomes Canon. Regardless of how many units shipped. Regardless of how many units sold. If it's in print - it happened.

You can keep protesting that you didn't read it, or that it wasn't read by any number of people, but that's a total moot point. None of that invalidates Marvel having published comics using that term. Because the second that they did? That's all that mattered.

If it is a reprint from an imprint that was never considered canon in Marvel USA, yes.

Unless the story stated otherwise, Marvel UK's stories were ALWAYS in canon. This is a point which really does need repeating, because your assumption here is completely false. These stories all occurred in the same shared continuity. Marvel UK book often referenced events and plot points from the US books. The US books featured characters from the UK titles.

The characters introduced during the reprint years turned up in Excalibur. Death's Head Turned up in She-Hulk and in Walt Simonsen's Fantastic Four. Motormouth and Killpower turned up in Peter David's Incredible Hulk. Sir James Jaspers turned up at the Trial of Magneto in Uncanny X-Men.

The (false) belief that Marvel UK's original material was not part of Marvel's shared continuity is garbage. It's a myth. An urban legend.

It's simply not true.

The Marvel UK titles was not telling stories for the Marvel USA audience who would have had them available for purchase.

And again how many different ways does this need disproving to you? The stories were very carefully written, with consultation from US editors, to be part of the whole. Hell, if you want historical evidence the 1970s Captain Britain stories were written by a combination of Chris Claremont and Gary Friedrich FROM the US offices. Right from Marvel UK's earliest days this was a collaboration. For the very reason that the US editors did not want any UK originated material to contradict their work, or go off in a direction they were unhappy with.

If there had genuinely been an objection to the term Earth 616 being created do you not think that somebody in the US office wouldn't have flagged that?

Just who would be sticking to this naming convention? Why would every reality even know about it? There's not a steady stream of traffic going back and forth between them.

That's not necessarily true. I mean teams like the Web Warriors or Exiles, or organisations such as the Captain Britain Corps or the TVA travel constantly to other universes. They all use the same numbering system these days. It is far from implausible that that system has been shared with individuals on that Earth.

IMO Earth Prime is appropriate in a meta sense because again I am going back to the MU that Stan and Jack created. Everything else is secondary to it.

Stan and Jack created a universe of characters which was deliberately set in a plausible, down to earth, version of our own world. They created characters with very believable, average Joe kind of lives. They created an ordinary universe with extraordinary people within it. But to all intents and purposes it was a plain ordinary world.

Earth 616 not being a 'PRIME' universe is totally, tonally, in step with that.

The same Earth becoming a front and center, first and foremost, Lead Universe of all possible worlds? I would argue heavily is not.

And while I do agree that tonally Marvel should always aim to keep in-step with what Stan and Jack created you do have to accept that it has been decades since that time. If you were discard every character, character development, plot point and expanded detail of the Marvel Universe written about since they left? You wouldn't be left with much.

The canon is as it is. And maintaining its consistency NOW is more important now than focusing on its raw beginnings.

[Thor-Ul]

Let me spell this out, once again. Because I don't think it's going in, clearly.

If a publisher publishes a Comic Book, telling a story set in its shared universe, it becomes Canon. Regardless of how many units shipped. Regardless of how many units sold. If it's in print - it happened.

You said it bro:



In print.

[Iron Maiden]

How is sales in any way relevant to canon?

Seriously.

Sure, you wouldn't really expect a title reprinting stories which those who wanted to read them probably purchased through import already to be tremendously high, but that not really the point.

Let me spell this out, once again. Because I don't think it's going in, clearly.

If a publisher publishes a Comic Book, telling a story set in its shared universe, it becomes Canon. Regardless of how many units shipped. Regardless of how many units sold. If it's in print - it happened.

You can keep protesting that you didn't read it, or that it wasn't read by any number of people, but that's a total moot point. None of that invalidates Marvel having published comics using that term. Because the second that they did? That's all that mattered.





Unless the story stated otherwise, Marvel UK's stories were ALWAYS in canon. This is a point which really does need repeating, because your assumption here is completely false. These stories all occurred in the same shared continuity. Marvel UK book often referenced events and plot points from the US books. The US books featured characters from the UK titles.

The characters introduced during the reprint years turned up in Excalibur. Death's Head Turned up in She-Hulk and in Walt Simonsen's Fantastic Four. Motormouth and Killpower turned up in Peter David's Incredible Hulk. Sir James Jaspers turned up at the Trial of Magneto in Uncanny X-Men.

The (false) belief that Marvel UK's original material was not part of Marvel's shared continuity is garbage. It's a myth. An urban legend.

It's simply not true.





And again how many different ways does this need disproving to you? The stories were very carefully written, with consultation from US editors, to be part of the whole. Hell, if you want historical evidence the 1970s Captain Britain stories were written by a combination of Chris Claremont and Gary Friedrich FROM the US offices. Right from Marvel UK's earliest days this was a collaboration. For the very reason that the US editors did not want any UK originated material to contradict their work, or go off in a direction they were unhappy with.

If there had genuinely been an objection to the term Earth 616 being created do you not think that somebody in the US office wouldn't have flagged that?





That's not necessarily true. I mean teams like the Web Warriors or Exiles, or organisations such as the Captain Britain Corps or the TVA travel constantly to other universes. They all use the same numbering system these days. It is far from implausible that that system has been shared with individuals on that Earth.





Stan and Jack created a universe of characters which was deliberately set in a plausible, down to earth, version of our own world. They created characters with very believable, average Joe kind of lives. They created an ordinary universe with extraordinary people within it. But to all intents and purposes it was a plain ordinary world.

Earth 616 not being a 'PRIME' universe is totally, tonally, in step with that.

The same Earth becoming a front and center, first and foremost, Lead Universe of all possible worlds? I would argue heavily is not.

And while I do agree that tonally Marvel should always aim to keep in-step with what Stan and Jack created you do have to accept that it has been decades since that time. If you were discard every character, character development, plot point and expanded detail of the Marvel Universe written about since they left? You wouldn't be left with much.

The canon is as it is. And maintaining its consistency NOW is more important now than focusing on its raw beginnings.

Yeah, canon is canon. And now 616 is gone so that's canon that you have to accept. What Tom Brevoort is saying here while it was used in stories they never considered in the official name for Marvel Earth.

“I can tell you for sure that those of us actually working on the books virtually never use the term — and I kind of wince inside whenever I hear somebody use it. It just sounds so stupid to my ear, and so counter to the kind of mindset we try to foster in regard to the stories we create and the thinking we try to employ.” – Marvel Executive Editor, Tom Brevoort

Nothing person but his statement hold more weight that MB posters' opinions.

And yes, Marvel Earth is considered singular. It's been brought up as recently as Invincible Iron Man where Doom is telling Tony about how a different Wand of Watoomb from anther universe ended up on Earth.

BTW the reason I pointed out the sales of Captain Britain reprints in the USA was because it was asserted that they were readily available and fans should know about them. The figures show that the weren't even in the top 200 for orders so it's not like they were all over the place. And again, Marvel UK, an imprint that no longer exists and never impacted Marvel USA stories does not decide canon

[The Sword is Drawn]

You said it bro:



In print.

Yup. Although the context is a little unclear. Reed would obviously use the term. But he's not going to be around for a while. It'll be interesting to see who does use it from this point forwards.

My suspicion is 'very few people'. But we should wait and see.

[The Sword is Drawn]

Yeah, canon is canon. And now 616 is gone so that's canon that you have to accept. What Tom Brevoort is saying here while it was used in stories they never considered in the official name for Marvel Earth.

“I can tell you for sure that those of us actually working on the books virtually never use the term — and I kind of wince inside whenever I hear somebody use it. It just sounds so stupid to my ear, and so counter to the kind of mindset we try to foster in regard to the stories we create and the thinking we try to employ.” – Marvel Executive Editor, Tom Brevoort

Nothing person but his statement hold more weight that MB posters' opinions.

I note that you didn't choose to address the majority of previous posts. Again. I wonder why...? C'est la vie.

I'm not debating that the editorial line is that Earth 616 natives should now refer to the world as "Prime Earth" (utterly cringeworthy a term though that is). My point is that outside of Earth 616, with the agencies and individuals who actually deal with the multiverse, it is unlikely that they will consider changing their ways.

We've already seen Web Warriors continue to use it. t doubt it'll be last book to do that.

If I use a system for recording and tracking books in a library, and some dude in another Country decides that he has a new and interesting way of cataloging books does this mean I have to switch to his method?

Of course not. I'd stick to my own.

Just because Reed Richards has a new system this does not mean The Time Broker, The Captain Britain Corps or The Time Guardian will all suddenly start using it. Why would they?

Ultimately it was very rare that anybody not outside of Earth 616 used the term "Earth 616".

And yes, Marvel Earth is considered singular. It's been brought up as recently as Invincible Iron Man where Doom is telling Tony about how a different Wand of Watoomb from anther universe ended up on Earth.

And what exactly does that prove. Artifact X from Universe Y ends up in Universe Z. This does not make Earth 616 any different from any other Universe. It is still only one Universe in an infinite number of others.

BTW the reason I pointed out the sales of Captain Britain reprints in the USA was because it was asserted that they were readily available and fans should know about them. The figures show that the weren't even in the top 200 for orders so it's not like they were all over the place. And again, Marvel UK, an imprint that no longer exists and never impacted Marvel USA stories does not decide canon

You're still not grasping this are you. It's beginning to become a little bewildering.

Canon is decided by what is published. If it was published, and part of continuity (as Marvel UK's titles were, no matter how many times you may choose to pretend that your not reading it somehow magically invalidates that), it is canon.

The naming/numbering of the Marvel universe in Captain Britain was never intended to impose anything upon the Marvel Universe. It could have been a throwaway comment of no particular worth were it not for the US writers at Marvel US embracing and using the term. Something which no editor vetoed. Something which had they been unhappy with certainly did nothing to stop its being using over and over again.

Your continuing attempts to pass that off as "something some dudes said on the internet" simply does not hold water, for the myriad of clear and obvious logic holes it has deal with.