Is Earth-001 the designation of the post Secret Wars marvel Earth?

[Iron Maiden]

You said it bro:



In print.

LOL.... Exactly.

[Iron Maiden]

I note that you didn't choose to address the majority of previous posts. Again. I wonder why...? C'est la vie.

Because I didn't think they were important enough to reply to? My choice.

I'm not debating that the editorial line is that Earth 616 natives should now refer to the world as "Prime Earth" (utterly cringeworthy a term though that is). My point is that outside of Earth 616, with the agencies and individuals who actually deal with the multiverse, it is unlikely that they will consider changing their ways.

So who cares? I know I don't. There could be many of these agencies out there in this fictional omniverse and they could all have a different cataloging system.

We've already seen Web Warriors continue to use it. t doubt it'll be last book to do that.

I wouldn't bet the rent on it. Sounds to me like this time they're pretty firm on it getting rid of it.

"It’s effectively a new multiverse. The biggest and most important thing here that nobody in the world will like, and that I’m the only one that keeps poking at, is the fact that the Marvel Universe is no longer the 616. I don’t know if by the end of “Secret Wars” #9 there are 616 universes yet. There will be an infinite number of them. Realities that we’ve known and new ones that we’ve never visited before are being constantly created, and then mapped and explored by Reed and his family.
They started by restoring the Marvel Universe. So really, it’s now the Prime Universe."


Oh, the CB corps can still call it that but then the Watchers may come up with their own, LT might have another name for it (who is definitely higher up than the CB corps). But the CB corps doesn't decide what everyone else who would need to make the distinction should use.

What you're not grasping is this. The numbering from the Captain Britain corps can stay the same.....for the Captain Britain Corps. But what Marvel is saying about the past and what they are going forward this is that this number is not what everyone else who deals with the Multiverses uses. The CB corps doesn't have the supreme power (for lack of a better word) to do that.

But maybe this guy does...


IMO it's only fitting that Reed and is family are a sort of surrogate for Stan and Jack is driving the recreation

[Loki]

So I checked at the Comic Chronicles which is one of the few sites you can find sales figures from past decades. The first mention of a Captain Britain Classics #1 has it ranked at #251 for the month of May 1995. The following month was X-Men Archives Captain Britain ranked #212 for June of 1995. Hardly a very widely circulated title if over 200 titles ranked higher on order. So I would rank it's presence in the US market as pretty obscure. And that would be 20 years ago.

Moving the goalposts much? You: "It didn't count because it wasn't available for readers in the US." Others: "It was available for readers in the US, and here's the proof." You: "What I meant to say is that it wasn't a big seller in the US."

You: "Why would the Watchers use the system the Captain Britain Corps came up with anyway? They've been around much longer. That's a reason it doesn't count." Others: "Here's on-panel proof that the Watchers do use the same system. Also, we don't know who came up with the system, so perhaps the Watchers did and the Corps copied it from them." You: "The system doesn't count because nobody knows who came up with it."

And not only do you keep shifting the criteria whenever you get proven wrong, but none of the criteria you raise are relevent anyway. It doesn't have to have been sold in the US market initially for it to be canon, not if the US market later adopted it. It doesn't matter who came up with the system (in the real world or the comics) if it is clearly widely used by numerous groups and individuals.

If it is a reprint from an imprint that was never considered canon in Marvel USA, yes. The Marvel UK titles was not telling stories for the Marvel USA audience who would have had them available for purchase.

Sword is Drawn has already demonstrated that it was considered canon in Marvel US. Characters from Marvel UK turned up in Marvel US within a very short time of debuting in the Marvel UK titles. The 1990s titles were specifically published for sale in the US; we had our own anthology title. Heck, characters from Marvel UK have turned up in the Marvel movieverse - where do you think Lance Hunter originated? And Marvel UK is so "never considered canon" that only a few years ago we had Marvel US publish an entire miniseries, Revolutionary War, starring the Marvel UK's lead heroes

Just who would be sticking to this naming convention? Why would every reality even know about it? There's not a steady stream of traffic going back and forth between them.

Any of the groups who previously used it. So just the Watchers, Captain Britain Corps, TVA, regular interdimensional travellers, etc.

IMO Earth Prime is appropriate in a meta sense because again I am going back to the MU that Stan and Jack created. Everything else is secondary to it.

Okay, so anything done by other creators since Stan and Jack is less valid. I presume Spider-Man is also secondary then, as he was a Stan and Steve creation? Should we stop calling Sue the Invisible Woman and go back to Invisible Girl? After all, that's what Stan and Jack called her, so any change made by others doesn't count.

You said it bro:



In print.

Nobody is denying that, for the time being at least, we're going to have Marvel editorial using that name. But it is silly to claim that 616 wasn't canon when it also saw print, and so many more times. And to insist that everyone else in the real world must now use that name too. You can call it whatever you like, but for many people, perhaps the majority, it remains 616.

Yeah, canon is canon. And now 616 is gone so that's canon that you have to accept. What Tom Brevoort is saying here while it was used in stories they never considered in the official name for Marvel Earth.

“I can tell you for sure that those of us actually working on the books virtually never use the term — and I kind of wince inside whenever I hear somebody use it. It just sounds so stupid to my ear, and so counter to the kind of mindset we try to foster in regard to the stories we create and the thinking we try to employ.” – Marvel Executive Editor, Tom Brevoort

Nothing person but his statement hold more weight that MB posters' opinions.

Except that his statement was demonstrably incorrect. When multiple realities were in use and so there was a reason for using it, the term was used numerous times by those working on the books, as shown by the on-panel usages of it. Given Tom's clear personal dislike of the term, I assume people avoided using the term in his earshot. As to the "mindset we try to foster in regard to the stories we create", I do now wonder about what "Prime Earth" says about what kind of mindset they want to foster now.

BTW the reason I pointed out the sales of Captain Britain reprints in the USA was because it was asserted that they were readily available and fans should know about them.

No, you asserted they were NOT available. Others simply proved that they were.

The figures show that the weren't even in the top 200 for orders so it's not like they were all over the place. And again, Marvel UK, an imprint that no longer exists and never impacted Marvel USA stories does not decide canon

Low sales or belonging to a defunct imprint is irrelevant, and does not rule something out of canon. As for "never impacted Marvel USA stories," that's been demonstrated to be incorrect multiple times. Characters originating from Marvel UK have repeatedly turned up in Marvel US stories.

Because I didn't think they were important enough to reply to? My choice.

The comments were accurate and disproved many of the incorrect assertions you had made.

[Iron Maiden]

Moving the goalposts much? You: "It didn't count because it wasn't available for readers in the US." Others: "It was available for readers in the US, and here's the proof." You: "What I meant to say is that it wasn't a big seller in the US."

Not quite the truth. Marvel UK was not sold here concurrent with the original printing. The reprints were sold here years later, if anyone was interested. That they weren't even in the top 200 shows there wasn't that much interest.

You: "Why would the Watchers use the system the Captain Britain Corps came up with anyway? They've been around much longer. That's a reason it doesn't count." Others: "Here's on-panel proof that the Watchers do use the same system. Also, we don't know who came up with the system, so perhaps the Watchers did and the Corps copied it from them." You: "The system doesn't count because nobody knows who came up with it."
And not only do you keep shifting the criteria whenever you get proven wrong, but none of the criteria you raise are relevent anyway. It doesn't have to have been sold in the US market initially for it to be canon, not if the US market later adopted it. It doesn't matter who came up with the system (in the real world or the comics) if it is clearly widely used by numerous groups and individuals.

I'd say it's more likely that Chris Claremont brought the concept over when he started working with Marvel and it just started out as a kind of easter egg to the Marvel UK and nothing more. Since he was very influential at Marvel at one time others may have gone along with it. He no longer has that kind of position any more.

Sword is Drawn has already demonstrated that it was considered canon in Marvel US. Characters from Marvel UK turned up in Marvel US within a very short time of debuting in the Marvel UK titles. The 1990s titles were specifically published for sale in the US; we had our own anthology title. Heck, characters from Marvel UK have turned up in the Marvel movieverse - where do you think Lance Hunter originated? And Marvel UK is so "never considered canon" that only a few years ago we had Marvel US publish an entire miniseries, Revolutionary War, starring the Marvel UK's lead heroes

Talk about an obscure reference. He barely has 20 appearances listed on the wiki. I'd never heard of him before. Never even heard of that Revolutionary War mini. Okay, I found a listing for the TPB and the estimated sales were 818 . The first single issue came out in Jan 2014 and sold less than 17,000. Not good for a number one. For February they barely scraped 10,000. Do you really expect this title would get any kind of traction in the US, enough to call it influential? Some things just don't cross over from one side of the Atlantic to the other. That's not unusual. To you it's very important. That's OK. But to the US market, not so much. That's not a put down. Just don't expect them to carry much weight with the US fans.

Any of the groups who previously used it. So just the Watchers, Captain Britain Corps, TVA, regular interdimensional travellers, etc.

Not true. I already showed you a panel by Walt Simonson, the creator of the TVA, where they had an entirely different numbering system. My suspicion still rests with this being an X title thing which was very big on alternate futures, DOFP, Age of Apocalypse, etc. and Claremont was the most prominent creator working on those titles.

Okay, so anything done by other creators since Stan and Jack is less valid. I presume Spider-Man is also secondary then, as he was a Stan and Steve creation? Should we stop calling Sue the Invisible Woman and go back to Invisible Girl? After all, that's what Stan and Jack called her, so any change made by others doesn't count.

Nope, that's not what I meant at all. My meaning was that Marvel Earth is the setting for a vast majority of the stories that have been told over the decades. Every other version of Earth that has appeared is of lesser importance. IMO that's the true meaning of The Prime Earth.

Nobody is denying that, for the time being at least, we're going to have Marvel editorial using that name. But it is silly to claim that 616 wasn't canon when it also saw print, and so many more times. And to insist that everyone else in the real world must now use that name too. You can call it whatever you like, but for many people, perhaps the majority, it remains 616.
Except that his statement was demonstrably incorrect. When multiple realities were in use and so there was a reason for using it, the term was used numerous times by those working on the books, as shown by the on-panel usages of it. Given Tom's clear personal dislike of the term, I assume people avoided using the term in his earshot. As to the "mindset we try to foster in regard to the stories we create", I do now wonder about what "Prime Earth" says about what kind of mindset they want to foster now.

It saw print but I think some got carried away with its meaning and importance. It was just a CB corps thing. And you can assume all you want about the workings of the Marvel Offices but I'll take the word of a guy who has worked there for 25 years an interned there.

Low sales or belonging to a defunct imprint is irrelevant, and does not rule something out of canon. As for "never impacted Marvel USA stories," that's been demonstrated to be incorrect multiple times. Characters originating from Marvel UK have repeatedly turned up in Marvel US stories.

But not to a great degree. Since they are important to you it may seem that way but they really don't have a very big role in the Marvel titles. I liked Cornell's Captain Britain series but the bottom line is that it got cancelled. I think a couple of you have this kind of national pride thing and are on a crusade to defend 616 and that's OK. But don't expect the US fans to care as much. Personally, I'm glad 616 is gone and that's the end of it. That doesn't mean that the CB Corps can't use it. But Reed is probably going to ignore it

[Loki]

Not quite the truth. Marvel UK was not sold here concurrent with the original printing. The reprints were sold here years later, if anyone was interested. That they weren't even in the top 200 shows there wasn't that much interest.

No, that is shifting the goalposts. You originally said "Again, why should Marvel UK impact Marvel USA when none of those comics were sold at comic shops in the USA." Not "none of those were sold until much later reprints" or "none that sold in big figures" - you only brought those changed criteria in when your original criteria got disproven.

I'd say it's more likely that Chris Claremont brought the concept over when he started working with Marvel and it just started out as a kind of easter egg to the Marvel UK and nothing more. Since he was very influential at Marvel at one time others may have gone along with it. He no longer has that kind of position any more.

"when he started working with Marvel"? He started working with Marvel in the 1970s, and he was Marvel's biggest writer through much of the 1980s, thanks to the success of the X-Men. I guess that is, if you really want to define it that way, as "very influential at Marvel at one time", if, by influential, you mean "the stuff he worked on remains massively influential and some of it is considered amongst the best stories Marvel has ever published." I know not everything he produced has been brilliant, but seriously, you cannot dismiss Claremont's contributions to Marvel as "was influential at one time." And the suggestions that others just went along with his using 616 because, what? They were afraid to offend him? They wanted to emulate him? They were trying to suck up to him? If others used it, and they did use it, it was because they wanted to use it, because they liked the term or felt it was appropriate for the story. Nobody was having their arm twisted to do so.

Talk about an obscure reference. He barely has 20 appearances listed on the wiki. I'd never heard of him before.

And yet, that obscure reference with barely 20 appearances, is looking to be the star of his own Marvel TV show next year. If Marvel UK stuff was not considered part of canon, they wouldn't be using any of it in the movies and TV shows.

Never even heard of that Revolutionary War mini. Okay, I found a listing for the TPB and the estimated sales were 818 . The first single issue came out in Jan 2014 and sold less than 17,000. Not good for a number one. For February they barely scraped 10,000. Do you really expect this title would get any kind of traction in the US, enough to call it influential? Some things just don't cross over from one side of the Atlantic to the other. That's not unusual. To you it's very important. That's OK. But to the US market, not so much. That's not a put down. Just don't expect them to carry much weight with the US fans.

Again, it isn't the sales that matter - it is simply disproving your false belief that somehow Marvel UK isn't considered canon in Marvel US. If it isn't, then how come it continues to be referenced in Marvel US titles? How come a story involving the majority of Marvel UK's characters was published by Marvel US only a few years ago?

Not true. I already showed you a panel by Walt Simonson, the creator of the TVA, where they had an entirely different numbering system.

And I showed you one where the TVA used the same system as the Corps. Meanwhile, Simonson used Death's Head, a Marvel UK character, in his run of Fantastic Four - so much for "not canon."

My suspicion still rests with this being an X title thing which was very big on alternate futures, DOFP, Age of Apocalypse, etc. and Claremont was the most prominent creator working on those titles.

"Suspicion"? You make it sound like there is some conspiracy, and people are trying to hide Claremont's involvement in helping 616 grow in use and popularity. No one has ever claimed otherwise about Claremont helping spread the term. And you make it sound like you consider being an "X title thing" makes it somehow less valid, less canonical to the rest of the Marvel Universe. Which is a weird assumption, given that the X-titles were Marvel's biggest and most influential titles for several decades, and probably still would be were it not for (a) Fox owning the movie rights now being a sore point at Marvel and (b) the titles related to Marvel's own movies gaining in prominence because of said movies. But you admitted that you didn't read the X-titles, so again this seems to really be coming back to "I didn't read the titles that used 616, so they don't count."

But not to a great degree.

Again, goal posts being shifted. You said "never impacted Marvel USA stories." When others prove they have and continue to do so, you change your criteria to "not to a great degree."

I think a couple of you have this kind of national pride thing and are on a crusade to defend 616 and that's OK.

And you think this is a national pride thing. Simply not the case. I'll let others speak for themselves, to corroborate or correct me as the case may be, but I don't believe that those who are pro-616 are all from the UK, nor those who are against it all from the US. If I am on any kind of crusade, and I tend to try not to be, it would be for accuracy, nothing else. I and others have corrected several factual errors in the claims you have made as you attempt to do down 616. What it comes down to is, yes, at least for the moment, 616 is out of favour with editorial (or Tom B, in any case). But to insist that it was "snuck in" by some creators, that "Marvel UK isn't canon", that the Marvel UK stories were not available for US buyers to read, that 616 itself was not canon, all of that is inaccurate, and so it was challenged and disproved.

But don't expect the US fans to care as much.

I know you don't care for the term (and, clearly, actively dislike it, or you wouldn't be trying so hard to discourage others from using it.) I'm sure some other US fans will share your opinion. But you don't speak for all US fans.

Personally, I'm glad 616 is gone and that's the end of it.

And again, inaccurate. The term might not be getting used at Marvel while Tom is gunning for it, but by his own admission the "Prime Universe" is the previous universe restored, which means 616 is not gone - it is the same reality it was before the incursions, and that means that for many of us, there is absolutely no reason to stop calling it 616.


That doesn't mean that the CB Corps can't use it. But Reed is probably going to ignore it [/QUOTE]

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/04/...other-mistake/

And the Marvel Universe, in line with the ideas of American exceptionalism and Randian philosophy, was now Prime Earth. It was the first, it was the most important and therefore mattered more. To me, how pompous can you be?

Well, I understand that the new Spider-Women Alpha comic out this week, which sees Spider-Woman, Silk and Spider-Gwen hanging out in Gwen’s Earth 65 may be bringing the 616 nomenclature back.Whaa? Earth-65? The numerical system to designate an Earth and Universe which make up the Marvel Multiverse is still in effect?

I mean, if '616' is not to be acknowledged but instead the term 'Prime', how come '65' has not been replaced by a term like 'Beta' or 'Lesser' or any other term that does not involve numbering?

Btw, it just hit me from Transformers; Optimus PRIME and Elita ONE.
'PRIME' can be designated with the number 'ONE'!

So the MAINSTREAM Marvel PRIME Earth is to be designated when using numbering as '001 Earth'.
But the WEB WARRIORS have a base on an Earth with the designation 'Earth-001' post Secret Wars

[SuperiorIronman]

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/04/...other-mistake/

And the Marvel Universe, in line with the ideas of American exceptionalism and Randian philosophy, was now Prime Earth. It was the first, it was the most important and therefore mattered more. To me, how pompous can you be?

Well, I understand that the new Spider-Women Alpha comic out this week, which sees Spider-Woman, Silk and Spider-Gwen hanging out in Gwen’s Earth 65 may be bringing the 616 nomenclature back.Whaa? Earth-65? The numerical system to designate an Earth and Universe which make up the Marvel Multiverse is still in effect?

I mean, if '616' is not to be acknowledged but instead the term 'Prime', how come '65' has not been replaced by a term like 'Beta' or 'Lesser' or any other term that does not involve numbering?

Btw, it just hit me from Transformers; Optimus PRIME and Elita ONE.
'PRIME' can be designated with the number 'ONE'!

So the MAINSTREAM Marvel PRIME Earth is to be designated when using numbering as '001 Earth'.
But the WEB WARRIORS have a base on an Earth with the designation 'Earth-001' post Secret Wars

The numbers remain the same. The multiverse was recreated after Secret Wars and so all the prior numbering is still valid.

Earth-001 is still Loom world in Web warriors
Earth-65 is still home to Spider Gwen
In Web Warriors Gwen also travels to 616 to talk to the then pregnant Jessica Drew.

Prime can also mean of "first importance". The "prime" Marvel universe in referring to the comics is 616 due to it being the focus of the publishing and what Marvel would look at first and foremost. It doesn't mean that 616 is suddenly the first universe but more so the first thing that receives attention as it is their big thing when it comes to their business.

[Iron Maiden]

The numbers remain the same. The multiverse was recreated after Secret Wars and so all the prior numbering is still valid.

Earth-001 is still Loom world in Web warriors
Earth-65 is still home to Spider Gwen
In Web Warriors Gwen also travels to 616 to talk to the then pregnant Jessica Drew.

Prime can also mean of "first importance". The "prime" Marvel universe in referring to the comics is 616 due to it being the focus of the publishing and what Marvel would look at first and foremost. It doesn't mean that 616 is suddenly the first universe but more so the first thing that receives attention as it is their big thing when it comes to their business.

I think you are wrong on that. Tom B says there is no 616 because Reed and the Future Foundation haven't recreated that many universes yet. Check out his tumblr Q & A. Earth Prime is the Earth of the Marvel Universe.

[Taral-DLOS]

Not sure if many others have read this, but the post-Secret Wars universe is referred to as the Prime Universe in the "All New All Different Universe" handbook that came out last week. A great read, if you like handbooks.

[Iron Maiden]

Not sure if many others have read this, but the post-Secret Wars universe is referred to as the Prime Universe in the "All New All Different Universe" handbook that came out last week. A great read, if you like handbooks.

Yes, I did pick that up and I have been thumbing through that too.

[Kurolegacy]

Not sure if many others have read this, but the post-Secret Wars universe is referred to as the Prime Universe in the "All New All Different Universe" handbook that came out last week. A great read, if you like handbooks.

I honestly gotta wonder how hard they're gonna try to push the whole Prime Earth thing before they realize that most people either aren't calling it that, instead still calling it 616 or just don't care.

[Iron Maiden]

I think only people on MBs care. No matter what you called it before, it's not 616 anymore.

[dragonmp93]

I think only people on MBs care. No matter what you called it before, it's not 616 anymore.

But apparently they already did 65 earths.

[Iron Maiden]

But apparently they already did 65 earths.

But the first one done was Earth Prime or another words ANAD Marvel I guess.

[Loki]

But apparently they already did 65 earths.

The odds are highly against Reed and co having rebuilt the multiverse in the same order as the old numbers, yet we know that Spider-Gwen's world is still considered Earth-65 by those who used the numbering, and that the Web Warriors still consider Loom World as Earth-001, even though it clearly wasn't the first one restored. So there's little doubt that while Reed might call his restored homeworld Earth Prime (and only might), anyone who knew the old numbering is going to go straight back to calling it 616.

Besides, who said the numbering was chosen sequentially? As in "first world we know of is Earth-1, the next we find is Earth-2, etc? In the UK, motorway numbering isn't done that way - the M42 wasn't the 42nd motorway, but rather the second motorway that comes off the M4. If you drive up Britain's M6, you can go off onto the A61 and then leave that to join the A61, A62, etc - branches of a tree, splitting into smaller and smaller roads.

Or look at the numbering of the elements. Nothing to do with discovery order, but to do with the number of protons they contain. So if the reality numbers were based off of something distinct between each reality than can be scientifically detected, then, given that Reed apparently restored everything as close as he could to how they had been beforehand, the same scientific tests will presumably still mark his Earth as 616.

So we're really just repeating what was discussed before - within the comics, those who used the old numbering system will continue to do so while the handful who know it was the first rebooted reality might call it Prime; outside of the comics, Tom B and others who disliked the numbering will call it Prime, while a lot of others, despite what Tom B or others might like, will keep on considering it to be 616.