Spidey's Top Love Interests

[Frontier]

So does that make Black Cat the "Cheryl Blossom" of the trinity?

Considering Felicia's relationship with MJ and Felicia's personality, that actually fits quite well .

[Confuzzled]

It's hilarious. I'm looking at some 60's Archie's comics and the fashions and looks of the teenagers in those books pale in comparison to the flair and beauty Jazzy John Romita was bringing to ASM at the time.

[Celgress]

In this order, imo -

Mary Jane Watson
Black Cat
Gwen Stacy

Being honest regular, non-Spider, 616 Universe Gwen has the least depth of all three (not counting the movies).

[Spider-Tiger]

Personality wise though, MJ is the Veronica to Gwen's rich Betty.

Eh, Ronnie is the rich glamorous princess, and Betty is the humble everywoman.

Nah. Gwen is a Jackie, and MJ is a Marilyn.

[Confuzzled]

Nah. Gwen is a Jackie, and MJ is a Marilyn.

It seems to be a better comparison but then again, MJ was a creation of the Second Wave of Feminism, albeit coupled with the sexual liberation and joie de vivre of the 60's. So possibly a Marilyn who was the product of the Second Wave instead of 50's Hollywood sexploitation?

[Spider-Tiger]

It seems to be a better comparison but then again, MJ was a creation of the Second Wave of Feminism, albeit coupled with the sexual liberation and joie de vivre of the 60's. So possibly a Marilyn who was the product of the Second Wave instead of 50's Hollywood sexploitation?

I suppose, though I'm not sure that Marilyn was really a product of the 50's or that MJ was a product of the second wave. MJ wasn't created as a symbol of feminism--it was happenstance that she became more representative of a new generation. I think the same could be said of Marilyn, who, with her unapologetic sexuality, was more a sign of the sexually liberated 60s than a product of her own generation. Some second wave feminists have criticized Marilyn for being a sex object (though the opinion of her has since softened), but she was far more savvy than people gave her credit for. She built her fame by constructing the comedic Marilyn persona and eventually started her own production company in order to avoid typecasting and to have more control over her own career. Marilyn faced sexual objectification throughout her career, but fought it because she wanted to be taken seriously as an actor.

[Kevinroc]

MJ was modeled after Ann-Margret. Particularly her role from Bye-Bye Birdie. Straight from John Romita, Sr.

[Den]

Yeah, I agree with others who say that MJ, Gwen, and Black Cat are the big three for Peter historically speaking.

[comicscollector]

In no order :

Gwen Stacy.
Mary Jane.
Black Cat.

[Confuzzled]

I suppose, though I'm not sure that Marilyn was really a product of the 50's or that MJ was a product of the second wave. MJ wasn't created as a symbol of feminism--it was happenstance that she became more representative of a new generation. I think the same could be said of Marilyn, who, with her unapologetic sexuality, was more a sign of the sexually liberated 60s than a product of her own generation. Some second wave feminists have criticized Marilyn for being a sex object (though the opinion of her has since softened), but she was far more savvy than people gave her credit for. She built her fame by constructing the comedic Marilyn persona and eventually started her own production company in order to avoid typecasting and to have more control over her own career. Marilyn faced sexual objectification throughout her career, but fought it because she wanted to be taken seriously as an actor.

Of course Marilyn was shrewd. Even feminists agree with that. But she needed that 50's misogynist culture to work in her favor to attain the level of fame that she did, whether that was the kind of success she really wanted or not. Which is why she later had trouble getting away from the image she helped create of herself. During and after the Second Wave though, women were not only able to own their sexuality on an increasing basis but a woman supporting herself was no longer frowned upon in mainstream society. Right from her debut, MJ represented that new generation of young women who not only wore their sexuality on their sleeve and were proud of it, but were also living by themselves and earning an independent living. So MJ was a direct product of the Second Wave and empowered 60's culture.

[Confuzzled]

MJ was modeled after Ann-Margret. Particularly her role from Bye-Bye Birdie. Straight from John Romita, Sr.

Yes, but I presume only in terms of looks and the more superficial personality traits. That movie was based on a 50's set musical, so the character was still much more demure than 60's Mary Jane. She depended on the validation of men around her, and she is pretty much tied to her boyfriend. She was a high school student living with her father and not even working. MJ OTOH, even though not above taking favors from the various lovestruck dudes, did not allow any one guy to tie her down right from the start, something she made clear to all the guys she dated, was living on her own, separated from her family, and was earning her own living, with big ambitions beyond "settling down happily ever after". I'd say the Bye Bye Birdie character was a more sassier, redhead version of Gwen than similar to MJ herself.

And that's what I love about 60's MJ. Some people dismiss her as a "flighty caricature" but she was actually pretty groundbreaking when it came to the representation of women in superhero comics, especially for Marvel Comics. Even the superheroines of the time like Jean, Sue and Janet heavily depended on the men around them, and sadly, were the weakest in terms of power on their respective teams and also pretty whiny.

MJ OTOH was a real revelation for Stan. He took inspiration for her from the Second Wave and the growing 60's counterculture and managed to create a far more dynamic and charismatic character.

[Kevinroc]

Yes, but I presume only in terms of looks and the more superficial personality traits. That movie was based on a 50's set musical, so the character was still much more demure than 60's Mary Jane. She depended on the validation of men around her, and she is pretty much tied to her boyfriend. She was a high school student living with her father and not even working. MJ OTOH, even though not above taking favors from the various lovestruck dudes, did not allow any one guy to tie her down right from the start, something she made clear to all the guys she dated, was living on her own, separated from her family, and was earning her own living, with big ambitions beyond "settling down happily ever after". I'd say the Bye Bye Birdie character was a more sassier, redhead version of Gwen than similar to MJ herself.

And that's what I love about 60's MJ. Some people dismiss her as a "flighty caricature" but she was actually pretty groundbreaking when it came to the representation of women in superhero comics, especially for Marvel Comics. Even the superheroines of the time like Jean, Sue and Janet heavily depended on the men around them, and sadly, were the weakest in terms of power on their respective teams and also pretty whiny.

MJ OTOH was a real revelation for Stan. He took inspiration for her from the Second Wave and the growing 60's counterculture and managed to create a far more dynamic and charismatic character.

Yes, I was referring to her looks. Comics are a visual medium. We can't downplay her design or the initial impression she made on Peter and the readers. Lee, Ditko, and (later) Romita wanted MJ to seem glamorous. (According to Romita, Lee wanted MJ to look like a go-go girl.)

Now, if you want to have a deeper discussion about her character and motivations, we certainly can have that. And if you want to discuss the way MJ was written compared to the other Marvel ladies, we can certainly discuss that too. I find it very interesting that the (originally) secondary female character in Spider-Man became so much more important than one would initially think.

[Confuzzled]

Yes, I was referring to her looks. Comics are a visual medium. We can't downplay her design or the initial impression she made on Peter and the readers. Lee, Ditko, and (later) Romita wanted MJ to seem glamorous. (According to Romita, Lee wanted MJ to look like a go-go girl.)

Now, if you want to have a deeper discussion about her character and motivations, we certainly can have that. And if you want to discuss the way MJ was written compared to the other Marvel ladies, we can certainly discuss that too. I find it very interesting that the (originally) secondary female character in Spider-Man became so much more important than one would initially think.

Oh I didn't mean to downplay Romita's contributions to MJ at all. I just elaborated that MJ was more progressive than the Bye Bye Birdie character as I had initially presumed the character was pretty much the live action version of 60's MJ until I actually watched the movie. So just informing folks who could have had the wrong impression as me.

Yes, the contrasting depictions of MJ and the 60's Marvel superheroines is as interesting as the interplay between MJ and Gwen's characterizations in that decade. I'm pretty sure even Marvel hasn't quite realized the character's faceted impact on superhero comics outside the wedding. Hopefully we get some kind of tribute for the 50th Anniversary of ASM #42 next year.

[Spider-Tiger]

Of course Marilyn was shrewd. Even feminists agree with that. But she needed that 50's misogynist culture to work in her favor to attain the level of fame that she did, whether that was the kind of success she really wanted or not. Which is why she later had trouble getting away from the image she helped create of herself. During and after the Second Wave though, women were not only able to own their sexuality on an increasing basis but a woman supporting herself was no longer frowned upon in mainstream society. Right from her debut, MJ represented that new generation of young women who not only wore their sexuality on their sleeve and were proud of it, but were also living by themselves and earning an independent living. So MJ was a direct product of the Second Wave and empowered 60's culture.

Fair enough. Though hasn't Mary Jane also faced similar struggles throughout her acting career (i.e. being valued for her looks)? Also in Parallel Lives it was established that she was criticized for her overt sexuality during her teen years (though it did make her popular among some of the boys). Or are we only discussing the character based on her appearances in the 60s?

I think a major difference between MJ and MM is the ways in which they handled their romantic relationships. MJ avoided commitment and refused to be defined as anyone's girl while MM looked to romance for security, but much of that is tied to their unhappy childhoods.

[Zeitgeist]

Norah Winters for #1 Spiderbae!

I voted Black Cat though. Get it girl