No more "batgirling," back to the same old same old.

[GlennSimpson]

I know i will be sorry for asking, but what's the point you're trying to make?

That the vast majority of the buyers don't really get into the situations you describe.

[Thomas Crown]

That the vast majority of the buyers don't really get into the situations you describe.

Okay, if you say so....let's not argue about that.

[Carabas]

SCENE 3
Customer enters the shop, sees Superman and Batman comics (characters she knows), buys them.

And what he buys is trades of The Dark Knight Returns and All Star Superman, if he's a brandnew customer...

[greenish lantern]

And what he buys is trades of The Dark Knight Returns and All Star Superman, if he's a brandnew customer...

Is All-Star Superman selling well? It's never in the top 300 trades.
And Flex Mentallo is the best comic book ever.

[Carabas]

That the vast majority of the buyers don't really get into the situations you describe.

If that were the case the American comicbook industry wouldn't have such a hard time atracting new readers.

It's on thing for a veteran Marvel fanatic to pick up one of the many Batman books. He's informed, he's steeped in industry news. He knows the shop guy who knows his tastes. He is likely familiar with most of the writers and artists.

A really new guy who hasn't read comics in decades? Runs away screaming.

[Carabas]

Is All-Star Superman selling well? It's never in the top 300 trades.
And Flex Mentallo is the best comic book ever.

It was when Men Of Steel came out.

And it's the only really good Superman book I could think of.

[Cipher]

This may be of interest- WHY DOES MANGA SUCCEED WHERE AMERICAN COMICS FAIL?

These were the key differences they found that contributes to manga's success:

...

6. PRODUCTION: Manga is done cheap and fast, printed mostly on newsprint, and published weekly instead of monthly.

7. MARKETING: No comics-shop love here. Manga are sold on newsstands, at book shops and at kiosks all over Japan.

8. DISPOSABLE MEDIUM: The Japanese Manga Market is largely a disposable one, as opposed to the “Collector” mentality that dominates the US market.

This is moving outside the strict topic of this thread, but I don't think we're ever going to see a turnaround in readership (which means we aren't going to see a superhero comics industry that can safely play to non-stereotypical readers) until we fix the distribution model problems outlined in #6-8.

Manga in Japan is priced to move, whether in the form of weekly or monthly anthology magazines or the bound volumes readers buy when they like a series enough to want to reread it. There are some other factors -- home media is prohibitively expensive in Japan compared to the U.S., but in general comics there are set to compete with other forms of entertainment.

In the U.S. they absolutely are not. $4 a chapter is a price for hobbyists. It's not a price for people genuinely interested in following serialized fiction. An episode of Mad Men on Amazon Prime costs $2, and is more satisfying in terms of both length and craft than a single $4 issue of Justice League (and, of course, a physical copy of the comic is much harder to obtain). Trades that go for discount prices mitigate this, but they aren't released on a schedule that allows readers to easily follow them (at least at DC) and are still prohibitive at MSRP. The U.S. comics model also discourages readers who want archival volumes and to follow a series monthly (double-dipping is cost-prohibitive in a way that buying monthly manga anthologies and tankobon volumes is not). I've suggested something like pre-orders on collected books giving free access to digital chapters as they're released, or other subscription models but ... something's got to give.

All of that requires an industry shake-up, though. You can't do fifty-plus series a month (or maybe you can, and just sell four different anthologies). You can't do everything in color. You'd have to move toward cheaper, digest-sized collections.

All of which I'd be fine with. I'd also be okay with a reasonably priced digital subscription system. But holy hell, something has to give, because the current distribution system for comics is off-putting as all hell, and I'd guess is a more significant barrier for potential readers than anything content-wisec. Those people who enjoy superhero books in other mediums, or might pick up a trade at Barnes and Noble? Make it easy for them to jump onto a book. I love superhero comics to death and I still quit reading current titles every once in a while because I can't find a satisfactory way to follow them, either budget- or collection-wise (preferring bound volumes but wanting or feeling obligated to follow stories monthly).

As disappointed as I am to hear the DC YOU has undersold, in retrospect it's really no wonder companies don't feel they can safely play to wider audiences; everything about their production and cost keeps the non-initiated out of the market.

[GlennSimpson]

If that were the case the American comicbook industry wouldn't have such a hard time atracting new readers.

It's on thing for a veteran Marvel fanatic to pick up one of the many Batman books. He's informed, he's steeped in industry news. He knows the shop guy who knows his tastes. He is likely familiar with most of the writers and artists.

A really new guy who hasn't read comics in decades? Runs away screaming.

Why? There is plenty of stuff in the store he/she would be familiar with.

Plus, apparently there are tons of readers who just kinda show up at the store and look at the posters and whatnot or what covers jump out at them.

I say this because people keep saying DC didn't promote this book or that book, and when I ask what specifically DC did not do, it boils down to things like posters in the comics shops. Which is, to me, like showing up at the theatre and THEN deciding what movie you are going to see, but apparently that's what a lot of people do (in both cases).

[SkyMason21]

A book like Black Canary or Starfire should of been launched out of a mini event from a book with built in readership. Green Arrow could of launched Black Canary after setting up her new status quo, Starfire could have come out of a cross over with the two teams she's best known for, Teen Titans and the Outsiders. The story line Martian Manhunter is running with could of been kicked off in Justice League and spun into his solo and cross pollinated with Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, it's an alien invasion story, it has built in tie in value.

Black Canary's new staus quo was set up in Batgirl. I don't know how many issues she appeared in though.

[RobinFan4880]

Unlike Novels, TV, Movies and Manga, American comics are completely dominated by a single genre of fiction. That is why comics are not as popular as they could be. Each genre only appeals to a small segment of potential readers. If an industry is dominated by one genre, then it is an industry which is limiting its potential growth and mass appeal.

You can do anything you want with Batman but because he is Batman, that will instantly turn a huge segment of potential readers off.

This is why Image has found such great success - it is creating books people want to read, people who may not in fact like or enjoy Superhero comics.

[Cipher]

This is why Image has found such great success - it is creating books people want to read, people who may not in fact like or enjoy Superhero comics.

That "great success" is still radically underselling in comparison to superhero books, though. People who don't read superhero books will read Image, but there's still a level of barrier in reading comics at all; most of these readers tend to already be clued in. Imagine how much more both genre and non-genre material could be selling with a competitive distribution model.

You're right that the U.S. comics medium is unique in its historical ties to a single genre, but I think this is a case of accessibility needing to be fixed in order to breed diversity, rather than diversity breeding readership on its own (and, actually DCYOU underselling, and Image not dominating market share seem to support this, aside from some outliers with major cross-media support like Walking Dead). I may be the kind of person interested in reading non-superhero comics (or even superhero ones), but if I can easily follow a more satisfying TV series or get a novel for much cheaper, am I going to make that jump unless I'm already dedicated to the medium?

(Not having the Comics Code could've avoided the single-genre problem in the first place, of course, but that's neither here nor there now.)

[RobinFan4880]

That "great success" is still radically underselling in comparison to superhero books, though. People who don't read superhero books will read Image, but there's still a level of barrier in reading comics at all; most of these readers tend to already be clued in. Imagine how much more both genre and non-genre material could be selling with a competitive distribution model.

You're right that the U.S. comics medium is unique in its historical ties to a single genre, but I think this is a case of accessibility needing to be fixed in order to breed diversity, rather than diversity breeding readership on its own (and, actually DCYOU underselling, and Image not dominating market share seem to support this, aside from some outliers with major cross-media support like Walking Dead). I may be the kind of person interested in reading non-superhero comics (or even superhero ones), but if I can easily follow a more satisfying TV series or get a novel for much cheaper, am I going to make that jump unless I'm already dedicated to the medium?

(Not having the Comics Code could've avoided the single-genre problem in the first place, of course, but that's neither here nor there now.)

I honestly do not think the floppy market is the target demographic for Image. It's all about the trades. Trades that sell a decent amount year after year after year.

EDIT: I know lots of people who buy graphic novels but would never touch a superhero book. They don't buy mountains of trades but they do buy one or two every few months. Most of their interests are in genres other than Superhero, which Marvel and DC do not, historically, cater much to.*


*Although Marvel's Star Wars is definitely bridging that gap in some ways.

[Cipher]

I honestly do not think the floppy market is the target demographic for Image. It's all about the trades. Trades that sell a decent amount year after year after year.

I can dig that, and also think that prioritizing a trade market is a better way to get newcomers invested regardless of genre (I certainly prefer reading that way even as a superhero fan). But it would mean DC would have to play the long game, increase trade schedules, and concern itself less with monthly sales number, none of which they seem willing to do. And if they're not willing to make even those concessions, I can only imagine they're continue to play to a more immediately rewarding, but ultimately dead-end, sales model.

But then, what do I know. And I mean that, really. They have whole teams of people dedicated to analyzing their business decisions, I'm sure. But from the perspective of a (pretty frustrated) buyer, they don't make much sense from down here.

[Serd]

I think it is simply time to accept, that a monthly shipping is not enough. Especially with the decompressed way comics are told these days. If a tv show would send one episode a month, the viewers would lose interest so quick, it would be cancelled within the first season. The monthly rythm was okey, when you were getting a full story every month.

As someone who started with trades and then moved to floppies, i totaly see floppies as a big barrier for new readers. Especially if you add the high price and the amount of story you get with one issue.

Perhaps for the future, a model like the writers room of a tv series would be the way to go. Not unlike the way they tried with "Batman Eternal".

Instead of four Batman books every month you have one big 80-100 pages book all by one writer and one artist. There would be four writers for the book and one of them would act as series runner who thinks about the big story and approves of every script for the series. The Batman book could be, for example: Scott Snyder (series runner), Tomasi, Tim Seeley and one newcomer. I would be willing to pay up to 10$ for this every month.

This way you could have a big amount of story every month, you have a big item you can sell at the newsstand and it comes out often enough to hook the reader.

[Lee Stone]

And what he buys is trades of The Dark Knight Returns and All Star Superman, if he's a brandnew customer...

Excellent point.
And after reading those, where do they go..?

Unless they're guided by someone else, they'll generally go to back-issues of comics from around the 80s and 90s.
Anything from before 1975 could be too archaic for new readers, and anything currently on the shelf could be too unfamiliar or too expensive.

New readers may be coming in but it's possible that they're going to the more familiar versions of the characters they know, which might be more similar to the movie, cartoon and tv versions.
Which means current comics are also competing with the back-issue market. More so now than ever before.
Quite possibly because the older comics are often cheaper, are being collected in tpbs more frequently and are also being made available digitally (at the fraction of the cost of new issues).

For example...
New reader goes to Comixology and Batman: Year One is on sale...
They get it. They like it.
They discover that it was four issues in the regular Batman series, #404-407....
They see the latest issue of Batman at $4.00 and looks nothing like what they just read, and they see Batman #408 for only $2...
And #409-up are also available at the same price, sitting there waiting for them...
Which way do they go?

No one's there to tell them those stories don't matter anymore.
They're old news to regular readers but new to them.