Can I get Nightwing back now please

[dropkickjake]

I just like Dick Grayson better as Nightwing. That's all.
You guys can try and justify why Grayson is better and why his almost 200 issues as Nightwing were no good but, it doesn't really matter. to me. It's all just opinion.An opinion that I don't agree with either.
I've been reading comics for over 4 decades and Nightwing has been one of my favorites since the day he took on the identity. Comments on a message board aren't going to change that.
Comics are a visual medium and I like the look of his costume and the way Nightwing looks kicking super villain butt. As "Grayson" he looks as boring and generic as an Agent of SHIELD. At least to me, anyway.
I understand that some of you really dig the whole spy thing. Great. I hope you enjoy the book, but, It's not really what I want to read.
I will continue to buy the Grayson book because it's entertaining enough but, that doesn't mean that I won't continue to wish that he was Nightwing instead. Even if I'm the only one that feels that way.

Fair enough, and well put. Grayson is a good book with tons of potential. Nightwing had (and has) potential as well. As for me, I prefer whats going on in Grayson more than anything I ever read in Nightwing. I do think Dick makes for a more interesting Spy than Jason for the reasons I stated, but I suppose that comes down to opinion as well.

Comics are a visual medium and I like the look of his costume and the way Nightwing looks kicking super villain butt. As "Grayson" he looks as boring and generic as an Agent of SHIELD. At least to me, anyway.

Now THIS is something that we can agree on. Not a fan of the current look. Its outweighed by how much im digging the stories and concept, but his look could use something a little more distinct.

[joybeans]

I'm beginning to think that Dixon's run is getting underrated here. It was fairly standard street level stuff, but it had its own personality that stood out from other Bat books, never really stalled, and was consistently solid (and sometimes excellent). For an ongoing solo series about a Batfamily member, it's certainly up there among the best, next to Bryan Q. Miller's Batgirl and Gail Simone's Birds of Prey (though Ed Brubaker's Catwoman would be at the very top). That said, you can't really replicate what Dixon did without being overly derivative, and the first 11 issues of Grayson blow Dixon's first 11 out of the water.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

I just like Dick Grayson better as Nightwing. That's all.
You guys can try and justify why Grayson is better and why his almost 200 issues as Nightwing were no good but, it doesn't really matter. to me. It's all just opinion.An opinion that I don't agree with either.
I've been reading comics for over 4 decades and Nightwing has been one of my favorites since the day he took on the identity. Comments on a message board aren't going to change that.
Comics are a visual medium and I like the look of his costume and the way Nightwing looks kicking super villain butt. As "Grayson" he looks as boring and generic as an Agent of SHIELD. At least to me, anyway.
I understand that some of you really dig the whole spy thing. Great. I hope you enjoy the book, but, It's not really what I want to read.
I will continue to buy the Grayson book because it's entertaining enough but, that doesn't mean that I won't continue to wish that he was Nightwing instead. Even if I'm the only one that feels that way.

Everything is an opinion on this community, we are not attacking you for liking Nightwing as not everyone who loves Grayson hated Nightwing. No one is trying to change you from liking Nightwing and we don't even talk about the Grayson costume because the Nightwing one is better and its the storytelling that has gotten people to speak highly of Grayson. Nightwing was a solid book that built fans but was limited in the stories and direction it could take and the spy area gives Dick Grayson more potential.
Grayson builds a unique world around Dick Grayson that does not always have to be connected to the Batworld which is great for his potential as a solo hero.

[Dzetoun]

Dixon was a good writer - especially when comics were cheaper - in that you could pick up a Dixon Issue and read the characters you liked being written in-character and pleasantly. They were not characters he created, and they didn't go outside their expected boxes, but they were good reads. They were also pretty lacking in substance, quoteable dialogue, or ongoing mysteries or twists.

Dixon's heyday also coincided with a period when comics were widely considered to be an artists' medium and the two largest groups of buyers were at least perceived to be collectors and adolescent boys, both of whom were 90% interested in visuals and 10% interested in storyline. One of the biggest shifts over the last twenty years has been the move toward the perception of comics as a writers' medium directed at middle-aged readers, with much of the excitement over art now directed at variant covers, and even that regarded with skepticism by a comics culture wary of speculation and bubbles.

[DurararaFTW]

Go on then, what is the best single Dixon issue of Nightwing - and the strongest individual story arc?



Dixon was a good writer - especially when comics were cheaper - in that you could pick up a Dixon Issue and read the characters you liked being written in-character and pleasantly. They were not characters he created, and they didn't go outside their expected boxes, but they were good reads. They were also pretty lacking in substance, quoteable dialogue, or ongoing mysteries or twists.

"The Boys" for instance - widely regarded as a Dixon highlight - is an issue in which Dick and Tim have a conversation, and it's quite a nice conversation. "Oh, I like Tim!" you think as you read it. "I like Dick! These guys are characters I like". And there's no attempt at anything wider, deeper or more interesting than that.


I wouldn't say it was a failing - I don't think Dixon was trying to do more, and he solidified a surprising number of characters in their "definitive" roles for a great many years - but it compares very unfavourably with the current "Grayson" title and approach.

Dixon created Bludhaven, heavily purposed Blockbuster, Shrike, Nitewing, Lady Vic, Clancy, Torq. He's been by far the most successful in giving Dick his own supporting cast, rogue's gallery and place to be, which, yeah is a lot like Batman's place. That's what made it, very much unlike Grayson, actually sustainable. Because these ARE superhero comics and that IS what Dick Grayson will always inevitably be. As for your questions, I much prefer the dream sequences where he talks to Robin!Jason, has him be an employee married to Donna and playing secondfiddle to Bruce Wayne and Dixon's issues in the Batman Murderer/Fugutive storyarc.

[jules]

You just have to remind these kids that's all. Nightwing has plenty of good material out there, they just have to make the effort to actually look.

It's probably best to bear in mind that a fair few of us have taken the effort to look. I read all those comics as they came out. I re-read the entire Nightwing run again a couple of months ago. They're as fresh in my memory as Grayson is.

I didn't really care for McDaniel's art style at the time, though I appreciated the more mature version of it when he returned for Nightwing Year One. As for the Land era, I preferred it to the McDaniel style, but preferred the Zircher fill-in issues infinitely more. Zircher would probably be my favourite Nightwing artist, for all that he never really had a sustained run.

I liked Chuck Dixon's writing a lot. He was reliable, he respected the characters, and he was writing an insane number of other Bat-books so he gave good inter-title continuity. But while I give him credit for inventing a lot of new villains for Dick, Ithey were pretty two-dimensional and I never really cared enough about any of them to want to see them again. And I didn't feel that much more invested in his supporting cast. The best interactions, the ones that really came alive, were the ones with other members of the Bat-family. The best thing Dixon did for Dick, as far as I'm concerned, was to break him out of the Batman mould a little bit by having him become a cop. It's a shame that barely outlasted his run.

And I see the spy role as being a natural successor to that. It's taking Dick out of his comfort zone, putting him into a position where the job's requirements clash with his heroic instincts and set up a constant debate with his conscience. I'm intrigued by the villains in Grayson and fond of his supporting cast, and want to see more of all of them. Every issue gives me snappy dialogue, a look at who Dick Grayson is at his core, interesting interactions with others, a curiosity where the plot is going... and a satisfaction with the answers we've been given so far.

And I very much like the multiple layers of plot. Those first eight issues are going to read very differently the next time I revisit them, in the light of the extra information we've got in the last three. It's richer and deeper than anything the straightforward plotting of Nightwing had to offer.

I liked Dick as Nightwing, and I'd be happy to see him put the costume back on from time to time. But I absolutely don't want to lose this crazy spy-in-a-superhero-world thing he's got going in order to do it. It's lightning in a bottle, and I don't want to tip the rest of the bottle away.

[Badou]

Grayson is okay but I'm not a fan of spy stuff. They should have made the super-spy book with Jason Todd if anyone.

Honestly, the Spyral stuff would have worked better with Jason in my opinion. He was a lot more intimately involved in Batman INC, especially the end which was Kathy Kane's last appearance. He was there when she killed Talia. So they could have gotten into this whole sub-plot about him trying to recover his memories of what happened and played around with that some. He has actual motivation to join them beyond "Bruce asked me". Plus he is willing to use lethal force and I think you can build better spy stories when you have a lead that is willing to take those steps to ensure that a threat is taken care of. Dick can only throw his escrima sticks so many times before it starts to feel stale.

[K. Jones]

I'm beginning to think that Dixon's run is getting underrated here. It was fairly standard street level stuff, but it had its own personality that stood out from other Bat books, never really stalled, and was consistently solid (and sometimes excellent). For an ongoing solo series about a Batfamily member, it's certainly up there among the best, next to Bryan Q. Miller's Batgirl and Gail Simone's Birds of Prey (though Ed Brubaker's Catwoman would be at the very top). That said, you can't really replicate what Dixon did without being overly derivative, and the first 11 issues of Grayson blow Dixon's first 11 out of the water.

I try not to underrate Dixon's contribution to the batman books as a whole. The Bludhaven run might very well have been "Batman Lite", but it was very good Batman Lite. And the long running arc itself, from arrival to Bridget to Soames becoming Torque, to the introduction of various costumed criminals, to Dick always being "pretty close if Bruce needed a hand for an event or to hang with Tim", to the Helena team-ups, to the eventual downfall of Blockbuster II were all really solid, as was the use of a retired Golden Age John "Tarantula" Law. I'll say I've never been all that keen on McDaniel, though. But I get why he made a mark there.

It's not revolutionary like Wolfman's NTT run that transitioned Robin into Nightwing and had that dark mentor figure in Deathstroke and all the friend drama, Starfire romance, marriage hijinx, and good soap opera stuff, but it's pretty important and started off really strong and carried that buzz for a good long while into the run before it started getting more dull. And hey, Torque, Stallion, Brutale, Double Dare and especially Lady Vic are all fairly memorable.

I said it when the New 52 started though, while you CAN make Dick go back to Nightwing "post-Batman", I never thought that they SHOULD. Not even out of a sense of a demotion - because like Dick himself, I wouldn't see it that way. Just out of a sense of moving forward and doing something big, bold and unique. I hope Dick Grayson, super-spy is here to stay for a LONG LONG TIME.

But that being said - I'm completely open to him changing his spy uniform to something that even if it's not a Nightwing costume just SCREAMS NIGHTWING. I'd take the Young Justice costume, except with short sleeves and no domino mask, all day. Or some similar variation of the classic solid black costume with blue adornments - it could just be a black motorcycle jacket that happens to have blue arm stripes and a "similar to Nightwing" pattern of blue on the chest, and some black pants. And if, during the course of a team-up, some of his super-friends want to keep referring to him as Nightwing, well, that's fine too!

[joybeans]

Something like this, but blue?



Actually, I wonder what the reaction would be if Nightwing had come out of the New 52 gate with the spy direction.

[SiegePerilous02]

Honestly, the Spyral stuff would have worked better with Jason in my opinion. He was a lot more intimately involved in Batman INC, especially the end which was Kathy Kane's last appearance. He was there when she killed Talia. So they could have gotten into this whole sub-plot about him trying to recover his memories of what happened and played around with that some. He has actual motivation to join them beyond "Bruce asked me". Plus he is willing to use lethal force and I think you can build better spy stories when you have a lead that is willing to take those steps to ensure that a threat is taken care of. Dick can only throw his escrima sticks so many times before it starts to feel stale.

But the fact that Jason is ok with killing people and using guns makes him a boring choice to go with in this book. The entire spy thing (beyond the suave, James Bond-like aspects of it) goes against Dick's nature, and that's where the drama lies. He can either subvert it from the inside out, or be corrupted by it, and it'd be interesting either way. Jason would be a much more straight forward, gun toting government agent with little conflict, and it'd be dull.

[Badou]

But the fact that Jason is ok with killing people and using guns makes him a boring choice to go with in this book. The entire spy thing (beyond the suave, James Bond-like aspects of it) goes against Dick's nature, and that's where the drama lies. He can either subvert it from the inside out, or be corrupted by it, and it'd be interesting either way. Jason would be a much more straight forward, gun toting government agent with little conflict, and it'd be dull.

Yeah but with Jason you'd have him struggling with following Bruce's orders or going off on his own. Dick is just going to do what Bruce wants. Plus he has the personal grudge against Kathy Kane for what happened to Talia in some ways too. I don't think there is any real threat of Dick being corrupted, as he is too stable a person, but someone who is more unstable or prone to poor judgement like Jason is more likely to be swept up in an organization like Spyral I think. Personally he can probably identify with Spyral more with how they operate and remove threats. Dick is always going to be an outsider to them because of his moral code.

I mean I have no idea if it would have been as good or better than Grayson, but I see how it could have worked at least.

[HellHere]

It would have been fine. But it would lack the elements that have elevated Grayson.

Same way that Dick in a buddy-cop book would be fine. It just wouldn't be anything great.

[LoneNecromancer]

Dixon created Bludhaven, heavily purposed Blockbuster, Shrike, Nitewing, Lady Vic, Clancy, Torq. He's been by far the most successful in giving Dick his own supporting cast, rogue's gallery and place to be, which, yeah is a lot like Batman's place. That's what made it, very much unlike Grayson, actually sustainable. Because these ARE superhero comics and that IS what Dick Grayson will always inevitably be. As for your questions, I much prefer the dream sequences where he talks to Robin!Jason, has him be an employee married to Donna and playing secondfiddle to Bruce Wayne and Dixon's issues in the Batman Murderer/Fugutive storyarc.

Sustainable? Bludhaven got destroyed! Most those villains don't exist anymore! Dearie me...

[oasis1313]

What is "batgirling"?

[Rac7d*]

How long to get Grayson to Black widow status?