Thors, #3

[oldschoolfan]

Amen to that, was one of the best stories i have read in years, even now no story comes close to that one.

I want to make sure I am talking about the right story, this is the book that had the Fellowship of the Rings type story where Thor ended up being the traitor because he had the monster inside of him? And the Galactus story where Thor is trying to protect a dead Earth and acted like Odin?

Sure Aaron pushed the character in new directions, but at what cost? Thor Odinson stopped resembling the guy that he was originally created as.....that's my issue. The new Jane Fosthor acts more like the guy that Lee & Kirby created than Jason Aaron's version. That's all I am saying. I like the Jane Fosthor okay....but I don't think I like this as a permenant change..... and it looks like it will be at least for the near future.

I am glad you liked those books.....but, to me at least, they are odd versions of a character that has been completely mishandled by a writer that thought Thor should be more like Lobo and less like the character that Stan and Jack started.

When Mark Waid was writing the Hulk, recently, he and Walt Simonson teamed up and did a Thor crossover story. That story was the Thor I recognized. Johnathan Hickman has had a few great Thor moments too. All Aaron's Thor seems to be able to do is drink burp and and act antagonistic.

I'm just venting....I don't mean nothing by it. If people like this Thor, cool. I just don't like it that much.

[vitruvian]

On that topic, I've been thinking for some time that Fury told Thor a long-forgotten secret which he suddenly remembered, a deed he committed in the past that now that he remembered made him unworthy.

If he did it, surely it would have rendered him unworthy whether he remembered it or not, so I don't think that explanation works.

[jackolover]

Thinking that what Fury said was intended for the hammer could work too.
Could he separate the Silver Surfer from his board?

Surfer and board is more intimate because they are both cosmic powered but I believe it was done many times before. Remove the cosmic power and Surfer can't control board.

[Raye]

If he did it, surely it would have rendered him unworthy whether he remembered it or not, so I don't think that explanation works.

Yeah. as I said in another thread, I really don't think the secret is anything so simple as a forgotten bad deed. I mean, if it counted past events done a long time ago, even if Thor was different at the time of whatever bad deed it was, then following that logic, there is no way for him to ever regain his worthyness. One bad deed, unworthy forever, it just can't work that way. Also, I just don't think it will be anything that's so easy to predict. I honestly don't know what it will be, but one thing I am sure of is that it's not anything that's been guessed here, there is some sort of twist.


Anyway..... Read the issue today, and liked it. Spoilers ahead:


As I suspected, Loki is not the killer. I felt Runey as the REAL killer was a little predictable, but eh, what are you gonna do with 4 issues? Also, as I suspected Loki is able to see through the big lie of Battleworld, at least to an extent. He was trying to help get Ultimate Thor to see as well. He just kinda used the creepiest way imaginable to accomplish that. Not with a ton of success, but he did get him to realize something was 'off', but just as he was coming to that conclusion, Runey tried to kill him, but he was saved by Unworthy Thor, who looks like will actually be the big hero of the story.

[RAINMESS]

As I suspected, Loki is not the killer. I felt Runey as the REAL killer was a little predictable, but eh, what are you gonna do with 4 issues? Also, as I suspected Loki is able to see through the big lie of Battleworld, at least to an extent. He was trying to help get Ultimate Thor to see as well. He just kinda used the creepiest way imaginable to accomplish that. Not with a ton of success, but he did get him to realize something was 'off', but just as he was coming to that conclusion, Runey tried to kill him, but he was saved by Unworthy Thor, who looks like will actually be the big hero of the story.

Well, I really didn't even think about Runey being the killer. That was a really twist for me.
Can't wait to see 616 Thor (Jane) in next issue.

[PiercedMonk]

So, is the implication behind Loki's words that there is some sort preternatural connection between Thor -- or at least versions of Thor who would have been the Son of Odin pre-Battleworld -- and Jane Foster, and Donald Blake? Like we've been seeing that there are at least cracks in the facade that is Battleworld with characters in various books -- CAPTAIN BRITAIN AND THE DEFENDERS, THE CAROL CORPS -- having some inkling that not all is as it appears, but Loki's words, and later Ultimate Thor's tacit confirmation, would seem to imply a deeper significance than Thor and Jane having had a relationship. The connection with Donald Blake makes sense but he appears to be less of a concern so far as the story goes.

Also, does Ultimate Thor actually believe Doom is his father, or was that more symbolic? Do all the Thors think Doom is their father?

[Raye]

Well, I really didn't even think about Runey being the killer. That was a really twist for me.
Can't wait to see 616 Thor (Jane) in next issue.

Well, it's just that with all the victims being Jane (and Donald Blake but apparently not as many of him as Jane) and then the fact we saw a big ass lightning bolt when Beta Ray Bill was killed, it seemed fairly obvious that it was probably a Thor of the Odinson variety, and Runey was the most unpleasant of the lot. I just think it may have been a bit more interesting to have it be one of the Thors that on the surface seemed more normal and nice. But I guess we didn't have many Odinson Thors beyond Ultimate, King, Runey and Unworthy that had more than cameos, come to think of it.

One thing that this does illustrate is that there definitely must be a different criteria of worthyness on Battleworld, or Runey's hammer was busted somehow. There is no way that in the regular universe Thor cold do something so vile and remain worthy. Or if he could, then the enchantment really doesn't work like most people think.

So, is the implication behind Loki's words that there is some sort preternatural connection between Thor -- or at least versions of Thor who would have been the Son of Odin pre-Battleworld -- and Jane Foster, and Donald Blake? Like we've been seeing that there are at least cracks in the facade that is Battleworld with characters in various books -- CAPTAIN BRITAIN AND THE DEFENDERS, THE CAROL CORPS -- having some inkling that not all is as it appears, but Loki's words, and later Ultimate Thor's tacit confirmation, would seem to imply a deeper significance than Thor and Jane having had a relationship. The connection with Donald Blake makes sense but he appears to be less of a concern so far as the story goes.

I think it's just that Battlworld is mostly an illusion, a big pack of lies. Doom has altered memories of past events to make them fit together, but it's not perfect. If you look too closely it begins to fall apart, and more and more characters are beginning to do this. Loki being the god of lies and now stories puts him in a position to do this more easily than most. Make Doom's illusion crack enough, it's possible they will remember their past lives/stories. Do that with the Thors, Doom's own personal police force, and it could affect all of Battleworld. That feeling they have towards Janes are, as I understood it, kind of shadows of memories. Memories Doom has tried to hide, but there's still *something* there. It's a thread they can pull to make the illusion unravel.

Also, does Ultimate Thor actually believe Doom is his father, or was that more symbolic? Do all the Thors think Doom is their father?

Well, they can't think Odin is their father, because if Odin existed on Battleworld that would make the illusion that Doom is the one and only god collapse. Maybe if they thought Odin wasn't a god, but... But then there's Future Imperfect where some people do seem to know about Odin being a god. But anyway, if they don't know who Odin is, someone else must take his place in the narrative Doom constructed, and making Doom himself their father would kinda make them more loyal.

[jackolover]

It was someone's job to kill Jane Fosters all over the world, before Loki exhumed some of them to make Thors aware of some murders. I think Runey and Destroyer Thors were doing that job, because any Jane Fosters around a Thor would distract them from duty. Kill the Janes, wipe the Thors memory and get on with the Army of Thors.

Then along comes Loki, and he disrupts the equilibrium, so Beta Ray Bill investigates, and has to be murdered too. More clues lead Ultimate Thor to investigate so he has to die too.

That's what we know.

What we don't know is the usefulness of the Jane culling and the Thor mindwipe. If Doom instructed one Thor to be the culler and the mind wiper, then it's just a simple case of castration to make eunuch Thors.

[Raye]

Who said anything about it being a 'job'? There is no need to over-complicate the killings; Runey is a serial killer, plain and simple. He feels something weird when in the presence of any alternate Jane Fosters or Donald Blakes, his response to that feeling is to kill them. Simple. (remember Loki saying Jane's name over and over and telling Thor "That fluttery little feeling deep in your gut right now... That's the answer to your questions. That feeling is why she's dead.") Loki could already see through the illusion Doom had constructed to an extent, and he apparently has some way of gathering information across Battleworld, but he could not do anything about it. Then he discovered what Runey was doing and most importantly realized WHY he was doing it, and took it as an opportunity to expose the cracks he could already see to the Thors. If he can get them to see the truth, Doom's illusion may come crashing down within the ranks of his own police force, which is huge. In one fell swoop, all Odinson born Thors could turn against Doom.

As for why Doom wiped Thor's mind... well, he altered the memories of every OTHER person in Battleworld, so why would Thor be an exception? And obviously any Asgardians present on Battleworld can't be permitted to remember that they are GODS, because on Battleworld Doom is the one and only god. So their memories will be altered more than most by necessity.

[jackolover]

I can't see Runey being a simple mass murderer just because he has flutters in his belly over seeing Jane Foster.

I feel Runey has to have been given this duty specifically as a way to keep the Thors obedient to Doom to keep the Janes away from the others, threatening the revelation Doom is not a god. I have always wondered, why Thors as a police force? He has Hulks right there. Just use them. Thor is such a noble person, and collecting so many of them, and then chaining them to the ignomous task of being Dooms lap dogs, that is some pretty screwed up mind altering. I always thought multitudes of Thors? This is obscene. Doom has to do a hell of a lot of manipulation to make Battleworld what the final solution was for What If? , of Civil War, which was using hundreds of Thor clones. But for Doom to use flesh and blood Thors and not machines, he had to remove the temptation of the Janes from the picture.

Look at all those Thors. It was the dumping ground of any well to do hero : Storm, Boar, Groot, Hercules, Ares, Two gun kid, Heimdall, Sam Wilson, Collossus, Nightcrawler, Sif, Valkarie, Phylla Vell, Magneto, Loki, Angela, Rhodey, Punisher, Lizard, Hypno Hustler, She-Hulk, Maria Hill, all Thors. So you can see Doom used the enticement to heroes to solve problems in the past, and the amalgum Thors were the remnants of past dramas solved this way.

[Raye]

This is a riff on police procedural TV shows. It's not going to be some grand conspiracy, that would break the formula. He's just sick, that's all.

I mean, does Doom even know who Jane Foster or Donald Blake IS? If he could forsee this causing problems he would have just omitted Jane entirely, he has that within his power, he did it for alternate Dooms, and presumably Odins (there must be an Odin for every Odinson Thor here, yet we've seen none. And while we know that the 616 Asgardians are safe and never made it to Battleworld, what about the rest of them? Doom seems to have wiped out most alternate Asgardians, Odin in particular. He probably is completely clueless about this flaw in his construction, as he's said himself, he's omnipotent, not omniscient. And it will be this flaw at least in part that brings him down, mark my words.

As for why Thors. Well, as i said Thors had to have their memories altered more than most ANYWAY so they would not know they were the son of Odin, a god that should not exist in Doom's little world. Why not make that alteration that could also benefit him if he could leave almost nothing behind anyway?

[PiercedMonk]

One thing that this does illustrate is that there definitely must be a different criteria of worthyness on Battleworld, or Runey's hammer was busted somehow. There is no way that in the regular universe Thor cold do something so vile and remain worthy. Or if he could, then the enchantment really doesn't work like most people think.

Co-signed. This is a worthiness determined by Doom, not Odin.

Well, they can't think Odin is their father, because if Odin existed on Battleworld that would make the illusion that Doom is the one and only god collapse. Maybe if they thought Odin wasn't a god, but... But then there's Future Imperfect where some people do seem to know about Odin being a god. But anyway, if they don't know who Odin is, someone else must take his place in the narrative Doom constructed, and making Doom himself their father would kinda make them more loyal.

Right, I wouldn't assume they'd think Odin was their father, but even though they refer to Doom as the All-Father in SECRET WARS, it didn't occur to me that they'd believe that Doom is their literal, biological father.

If that's the case, would Ultimate Thor and Rune Thor, and all the other Odinsons think of themselves as brothers, or as alternates? They're obviously aware of and comfortable with the existence of alternate versions of the same person, but does that extend to them? Or maybe they simply choose not to think of it at all.

[Raye]

Right, see in that panel we can see that apparently Unworthy Thor has begun to see cracks as well, hence him referring to the others as 'slaves' he can see that Doom has manipulated them. But as with Loki, there's not a whole lot he can do about it. They just kicked him out when he presumably began to express doubts about Doom's godhood. It would take something big to jog their memories, not just Unworthy Thor yelling at them. hence all the Jane Foster murders being exposed.

[y4uriteme]

Thinking that what Fury said was intended for the hammer could work too.
Could he separate the Silver Surfer from his board?

I've been thinking Fury either awakened or freed mjolnir to act with a will of its own. The hammer decided the definition of worthiness Odin had defined was not what it felt was appropriate. It may even see Odin and Thor as its oppressors.

[oldschoolfan]

I've been thinking Fury either awakened or freed mjolnir to act with a will of its own. The hammer decided the definition of worthiness Odin had defined was not what it felt was appropriate. It may even see Odin and Thor as its oppressors.

Which also could work.

My complaint is that we are so far away from the Thor that Stan, Jack, Walt Simonson, Dan Jurgens/John Romita Jr wrote about that how do we get back there? Because I don't really think Aaron wants to write a Thor that is like that unless its Jan Foster.