More news on Hercules and iceman's sexuality ?

[shgs]

Ok, now you are nitpicking. If you go back to post #39 Shgs -- you'll noticed that I clearly stated that it was "my" theory...

theory:
noun the·o·ry \ˈthē-ə-rē, ˈthir-ē\

1. An idea or set of ideas that is intended to explain facts or events.
   
2. An idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true.
   
3. The general principles or ideas that relate to a particular subject.

But your theory contradicts the reason stated, very clearly, on the page. Hercules was bewitched by Hylas' beauty. A theory that contradicts known facts is just fantasy.

[Fokken]

Found and read.... Although, I failed to come across any inference to Hylas being Hercules' "male lover" in this issue.

Perhaps, your recalling the time you were forced to read the "Apollonius of Rhodes' Argonautica" in Grade School as a punishment

I fail to see the inference as well.
Grief over the loss of someone whose beauty captivates EVERYONE does not equate to "male lover".

[Anduinel]

With all due respect Anduinel, I call bs on that. Snowbird, Northstar's teammate (Had she ever actually ever been shown in the same panel with Hercules, or was she just there to set up the joke with Northstar?), calling out to "others" in the crowd not to be shy about having "laid" with Hercules doesn't have much deniability in it except for people who really don't want Herc to be anything other than straight.

With equal respect, MoM, you're showing your own bias and an ignorance of the characters involved. Snowbird's announcing that there's about to be a tell-all session (and yes, Snowbird had been on the same panel with Hercules before -- they were FWB during the Secret Invasion event and worked together during the first Alpha Flight series). Something about that makes Northstar uncomfortable enough to leave. There is certainly an implication that Northstar is one of Herc's former lovers that she means to have join in, but where deniability comes in is the punchline -- is Northstar leaving because he's "shy", or because he has no interest in hearing this?

Part of why I come down on the second option has far less to do with Herc's sexuality than it does Northstar's personality. Northstar is most certainly not shy. So far as in-character reactions to Snowbird's invitation, any decently written Jean-Paul Beaubier who'd had a relationship with Herc would either have told Narya to either mind her own damn business or been on stage the next page over giving Namor D-face with everyone else. What is firmly established, however, is Northstar having almost zero interest in the personal lives of his former teammates. Unless his sister is involved, he generally cannot put distance between himself and Alpha Flight quickly enough. So when I look at that panel and cast about for a half-decent reason for Northstar to make himself scarce, it's because whatever respect he had for the Son of Zues for attempting to smack Sasquatch into low orbit, it doesn't extend to hanging around for Snowbird's TMI session about the soul-healing properties of Herc's manhood.

But of course, that's the canon-compliant "how do I get this to makes some kind of sense?" version. The larger part of it is that I've been reading comics for over twenty years now, and I am far, far past the point of giving Marvel or its writers credit for throwing me table scraps when it comes to LGBT representation. Even giving Pak and Van Lente credit for good intentions, even if I give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they were pulling a John Byrne and trying to sneak a little LGBT content past the editors who'd never allow it otherwise, it's pretty rubbish. The culmination of all their hints -- most of those being jokes about Herc's seeing an underage boy as a suitable lover; even the mythology bit from SI leans on that a bit by equating Hylas' important to Herc with Cho's -- is to reduce both Hercules' and Northstar's sexualities to a single out-of-character punchline. This is followed by Snowbird & Co. going on about how wonderful their romances with Herc were and a back-up story about how deeply Herc actually cared for all of his lovers and touched their lives -- every one of those lovers being female, of course. I'm supposed to look at that -- wiggle room and all -- and champion it as LGBT representation? When Byrne and Claremont were being more subversive and less insulting back in 1983?

Nope.

I don't want Herc to be straight. I thought Herc and General Howlett were absolutely delightful and I'd pay Marvel's jacked-up prices to see them running around post-SW instead of the 616 version. And if Alonso's announcement had been "Whoops! My bad, I guess Herc is bi after all!" I'd have counted it as a step in the right direction and hoped that Abnett made something palatable out of a very bad start. But since the judgement, unfortunately, came down on the other side of things, there's no way I'm going to pretend that "proof" that has to be propped up by the writers via Twitter is bedrock or was ever intended to be presented in a definitive manner.

[MasterOfMagnetism]

With equal respect, MoM, you're showing your own bias and an ignorance of the characters involved. Snowbird's announcing that there's about to be a tell-all session (and yes, Snowbird had been on the same panel with Hercules before -- they were FWB during the Secret Wars event and worked together during the first Alpha Flight series). Something about that makes Northstar uncomfortable enough to leave. There is certainly an implication that Northstar is one of Herc's former lovers that she means to have join in, but where deniability comes in is the punchline -- is Northstar leaving because he's "shy", or because he has no interest in hearing this?

Part of why I come down on the second option has far less to do with Herc's sexuality than it does Northstar's personality. Northstar is most certainly not shy. So far as believable reactions to Snowbird's invitation, any decently written Jean-Paul Beaubier who'd had a relationship with Herc would either have told Narya to either mind her own damn business or been on stage the next page over giving Namor D-face with everyone else. What is firmly established, however, is Northstar having almost zero interest in the personal lives of his former teammates. Unless his sister is involved, he generally cannot put distance between himself and Alpha Flight quickly enough. So when I look at that panel and cast about for a half-decent reason for Northstar to make himself scarce, it's because whatever respect he had for the Son of Zues for attempting to smack Sasquatch into low orbit, it doesn't extend to hanging around for Snowbird's TMI session about the soul-healing properties of Herc's manhood.

But of course, that's the canon-compliant "how do I get this to makes some kind of sense?" version. The larger part of it is that I've been reading comics for over twenty years now, and I am far, far past the point of giving Marvel or its writers credit for throwing me table scraps when it comes to LGBT representation. Even giving Pak and Van Lente credit for good intentions, even if I give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they were pulling a John Byrne and trying to sneak a little LGBT content past the editors who'd never allow it otherwise, it's pretty rubbish. The culmination of all their hints -- most of those being jokes about Herc's seeing an underage boy as a suitable lover; even the mythology bit from SI leans on that a bit by equating Hylas' important to Herc with Cho's -- is to reduce both Hercules' and Northstar's sexualities to a single out-of-character punchline. This is followed by Snowbird & Co. going on about how wonderful their romances with Herc were and a back-up story about how deeply Herc actually cared for all of his lovers and touched their lives -- every one of those lovers being female, of course. I'm supposed to look at that -- wiggle room and all -- and champion it as LGBT representation? When Byrne and Claremont were being more subversive and less insulting back in 1983?

Nope.

I don't want Herc to be straight. I thought Herc and General Howlett were absolutely delightful and I'd pay Marvel's jacked-up prices to see them running around post-SW instead of the 616 version. And if Alonso's announcement had been "Whoops! My bad, I guess Herc is bi after all!" I'd have counted it as a step in the right direction and hoped that Abnett made something palatable out of a very bad start. But since the judgement, unfortunately, came down on the other side of things, there's no way I'm going to pretend that "proof" that has to be propped up by the writers via Twitter is bedrock or was ever intended to be presented in a definitive manner.

If I offended you earlier I apologize as that was not my intention. In my own opinion I still think that the funeral joke was pretty obvious in it's intention even if it was portraying Northstar in a rather out-of-character way.

I personally consider that joke evidence that Hercules is supposed to be bisexual but I don't champion it as some sort of high-standard of LGBT representation from Marvel comics.

[Anduinel]

If I offended you earlier I apologize as that was not my intention. In my own opinion I still think that the funeral joke was pretty obvious in it's intention even if it was portraying Northstar in a rather out-of-character way.

I personally consider that joke evidence that Hercules is supposed to be bisexual but I don't champion it as some sort of high-standard of LGBT representation from Marvel comics.

Trust me, I understand why you might be defensive about opinions that don't mesh with your interpretation in this instance. But saying that the only reason that someone might have a differing take on that scene is because they want Herc to be straight, especially given recent events surrounding the whole question of Herc's sexuality, is making an less-than-generous assumption about some of your fellow readers, some of whom are LGBT themselves.

[Fokken]

Trust me, I understand why you might be defensive about opinions that don't mesh with your interpretation in this instance. But saying that the only reason that someone might have a differing take on that scene is because they want Herc to be straight, especially given recent events surrounding the whole question of Herc's sexuality, is making an less-than-generous assumption about some of your fellow readers, some of whom are LGBT themselves.

You word things REALLY really well, Anduinel, formerly Gary Cody.

[Anduinel]

Aw, come on, Chris! I'm an old fart...I don't speak .gif!

[Fokken]

Aw, come on, Chris! I'm an old fart...I don't speak .gif!

Youngish dinosaur.
It took me way too long to figure out how you knew my name. ha ha.
So... you may be old(?) but I'm clearly deficient.

How old we talkin anyhow(?) I mean I'm 33 so....

[MasterOfMagnetism]

Trust me, I understand why you might be defensive about opinions that don't mesh with your interpretation in this instance. But saying that the only reason that someone might have a differing take on that scene is because they want Herc to be straight, especially given recent events surrounding the whole question of Herc's sexuality, is making an less-than-generous assumption about some of your fellow readers, some of whom are LGBT themselves.

I recognize that not everyone that believes that Herc and Northstar didn't have sex is a homophobe. I know you from the LGBT characters thread, I know you're not some homophobic troll, which is why I made sure to say; "with all due respect" in my earlier post. Although to be fair being LGBT doesn't automatically mean you can't be homophobic.

I recognize that I'm probably quicker than I should be to judge some people's opinions as homophobic. But after everything that went on with the Iceman outing and the Hercules situation I was pretty offended by some people's reactions. And just a few days ago I noticed a few different comments in multiple threads made by the same person that was giving off a anti-gay vibe. So yes, I admit sometimes I do make less-than-generous assumptions about some readers opinions.

[ZNOP]

But your theory contradicts the reason stated, very clearly, on the page. Hercules was bewitched by Hylas' beauty. A theory that contradicts known facts is just fantasy.

True, that Yet, and still... The very theory you site (short of emphatically), included all living beings which apparently includes interdimensional Demi-Gods! Then again... One of the Beyonders might be a lover of Hercules as well.

Q: You ever hear of or currently listen to "Myrkur"?

[Dermie]

I fail to see the inference as well.
Grief over the loss of someone whose beauty captivates EVERYONE does not equate to "male lover".

"You spared the boy on account of his great beauty". Hercules spares Hylas life, and kept him around as his arms-bearer, because he found him to be beautiful. While that may not necessarily indicate they become lovers it DOES clearly express Hercules had a physical attraction to him. Then when you add that to his grief over Hylas' death--and the fact that he abandoned his quest and the other Argonauts in order to search for him after the others had all given up--it does suggest that they may have had a deeper relationship.

On top of that is the fact that in mythology Hylas was one of Herc's male lovers. So this is the comic acknowledging that part of Herc's mythology. They may not have gone explicit in detail...but I would certainly say it counts as a hint towards Hercules' bisexuality. Subtle, sure. But it was there.

[Aioros22]

"You spared the boy on account of his great beauty". Hercules spares Hylas life, and kept him around as his arms-bearer, because he found him to be beautiful. While that may not necessarily indicate they become lovers it DOES clearly express Hercules had a physical attraction to him. Then when you add that to his grief over Hylas' death--and the fact that he abandoned his quest and the other Argonauts in order to search for him after the others had all given up--it does suggest that they may have had a deeper relationship.

On top of that is the fact that in mythology Hylas was one of Herc's male lovers. So this is the comic acknowledging that part of Herc's mythology. They may not have gone explicit in detail...but I would certainly say it counts as a hint towards Hercules' bisexuality. Subtle, sure. But it was there.

People are forgetting another reference. During the Amazons "Love and War" arc, Cho is asked by the same if he refers to one of Hercules Eromenos. He does mention they are just friends and that is "bull" but the fact that the amazons mention it means there`s history behind the term.

Pak and Lente were obviously subtle about it and I guess they had to be unless they had carte blanche on an alternatice universe, as they did later, but I have no doubts whatsoever that in their mind they were writing Marvel Hercules with the mythical similarity of bisexuality. Then again, Marvel Hercules is a version based on the mythical account that they own the rights to. They can change and sell it like they want, it`s up to readers to show their preference with their wallet.

Thin line indeed.

As far as I am concerned as long a character is not defined by it, like you shouldn`t in real life either, I don`t care one bit who is gay, bi, straight or assexual. Give me good poignant writing and I`ll buy it.

[Kuwagaton]

The thing about Hylas made me think: if he bewitches ALL, does that include heterosexuals?

redacted

There's a difference between not liking LBGT characters and disagreeing with characters as LGBT, though. Bobby and Herc have been around for over 50 years, and neither has been described as anything other than straight. That's not to say that other readers or even creators don't have a right to read or demonstrate things differently, especially since LGBT characters simply weren't allowed to be confirmed for about 30 years or so, but different people have different preferences.

[Dermie]

The thing about Hylas made me think: if he bewitches ALL, does that include heterosexuals?

If they meant "bewitched" in the sense of his beauty being magically enhanced and controlling people, perhaps. But I don't think it was intended quite that literally.

In any case, there are still differences in how people responded to that beauty. The (presumably straight) members of the Argonauts didn't abandon their quest and continue to search for Hylas...Herc did. The fact that Nightmare would bring up this incident at all is a sign of its significance to Herc.

[Joe Acro]

Then again, Marvel Hercules is a version based on the mythical account that they own the rights to. They can change and sell it like they want...

More importantly, according to Pak, Hercules himself can change and sell what he likes--he tells Cho a story that Cho outright questions because it contradicts the previous story he knew, and Herc tells him (I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the issue handy) that myths aren't always about facts, and that he's using the story to make a point. And then the Eternals later make him question whether or not he cleaned the Augean Stables. So the myths themselves seem to be unreliable sources.