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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    AWonder is right though - Azzarello sells his story be playing on a very old and disturbing trope of women who are capable hating men. Diana is the exception to this rule in the book, but remains the rule for 99.9% of the Amazon nation nonetheless. The reader finishes the story with thoughts like "Wow, it's lucky Wonder Woman was there to stop these crazy feminazi's from killing any more innocent men and babies."





    Then that is incredibly foolish.

    The message in a story should ALWAYS be considered. Stories hold great power.



    OH, this old chestnut!

    Here are the Amazons, look at how pious and virtuous and boring they are. We have to drag them through the mud to make them interesting enough for anybody to read them.

    Utter rubbish! The Amazons have been human and fallible for decades. You are right to use the word dispatched, since what Azzarello basically did was kill the goodness in the Amazons and leave the rotting corpse in its place. Yeah, lets a break a thing into bits and put it back together again to tell a story. Except if history has told us anything it's that every time you do that with the Amazons they start out a little lower down the ladder and never climb quite as high as they did in the past.

    Let's challenge the idea of what he Amazons are by challenging the idea of challenging male partriarchal conceptions that strong women like this must be monsters. Let's make them into the monsters men talked about to prove that its possible, because seeing a group of homicidal xenophobes who regularly commit mass murder of menfolk begin to not do that will make men more comfortable with the idea of strong capable women.

    Do you have any idea how very counter-intuitive that sounds?
    I agree with you!! That was also well said!!! I recently got a chance to read his whole three years run, after reading his three years run I couldn't agree with you more!!
    Last edited by chlj1; 09-20-2015 at 07:24 AM.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Compared to what? Characters who are part of a whole other continuity?
    Yes. You can't talk about better or worse with one thing that never changes or two things that are exactly the same. And this is the jist of Jimenez interview which prompted the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by chlj1 View Post
    I agree with you!! That was also well said!!! I recently got a chance to read his whole three years run, and those were the feelings I came away with!
    Thank you
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  3. #168
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    Geez...

    They are not better or worse. They are different. They are the apple to the former universe's orange.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Personally I don't think I ever mentioned Zeus. And frankly I would rather have Perez' Lawrence Olivier version than the naked Liam Neeson homage.

    And if Athena is not the goddess of wisdom and battle strategy, then what is she?
    Justice. Didn't you quote that yourself a little while ago?

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    It is, nevertheless, a term in common parlance and a legitimate description of how many people see feminists. I can ask him on facebook, if you like.
    I'm not sure about "common parlance." As far as I know, the phrase is commonly used among right-wing types and the so-called "men's rights movement" (i.e., anti-feminists). I haven't noticed that it's common among the general population.

    Sure, I'd be interested in whether Jiminez personally would be comfortable describing Azz's Amazons or any women as "feminazis," and whether he thinks these Amazons are in any way (even as a caricature) presented as standing for feminists. I think he's a feminist (as I like to think I am), and most feminists, as far as I know, rightly abhor the term "feminazi."

    See above. Men who behaved like the Amazons did for 3000 years and then were put on the path to redemption would be burned in effigy, if not in truth.
    Men who treated women as property and took them into custody as spoils of war--and were never even put on the path to redemption--are still counted among the great heroes of Western civilization. That's why I mentioned Achilles earlier; his quarrel with Agamemnon was over would who get to take which woman as basically a sex slave.

    Counter-intuitive refers to the ability of a person to clearly understand what is going on at a meta level. It's nice to know you are so open minded in considering alternative points of view and the possibility your intuitions are mistaken.
    "Counter-intuitive" means running against intuition or against so-called "common sense" (which often turns out to be common nonsense); the theory of relativity has been referred to as counter-intuitive--though so, of course, have a lot of much less brilliant ideas. Like I said, I don't mind my interpretation being called counter-intuitive. Interpretations that are solely intuitive tend to be boring.

    I do like to think I'm open-minded, and I'm at least aware that I'm wrong as often as most people are. One of the times I admitted I was wrong on around here is when I initially thought it was OK for Azz to have Diana call Strife a "bitch." Toastedbread and other posters convinced me the real-world usage of this word made it too offensive to some women for its use in this way to be a good idea. I think the same thing about Jiminez's use of the word to describe Diana..

    Intuitively, Wonder Woman as daughter of Zeus or god of war didn't seem right to me either, but I came around very quickly, and now I like these interestingly counter-intuitive ideas.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 09-20-2015 at 10:13 AM.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    Sure, I'd be interested in whether he himself would be comfortable describing Azz's Amazons or any women as "feminazis," and whether he thinks these Amazons are in any way (even as a caricature) presented as standing for feminists. I think he's a feminist (as I like to think I am), and most feminists, as far as I know, rightly abhor the term "feminazi."



    Men who treated women as property and took them into custody as spoils of war--and were never even put on the path to redemption--are still counted among the great heroes of Western civilization. That's why I mentioned Achilles earlier; his quarrel with Agamemnon was over would who get to take which woman as basically a sex slave.



    "Counter-intuitive" means running against intuition or against so-called "common sense" (which often turns out to be common nonsense); the theory of relativity has been referred to as counter-intuitive--though so, of course, have a lot of bad ideas. Like I said, I don't mind my interpretation being called counter-intuitive. Interpretations that are solely intuitive tend to be boring.

    I do like to think I'm open-minded, and I'm at least aware that I'm wrong as often as most people are. Intuitively, Wonder Woman as daughter of Zeus or god of war didn't seem right to me either, but I came along quickly.
    Define "counted". Because whenever there's an adaptation of Greek myth stories there's no small amount of debating how accurate it is and if the "heroes" are going to be whitewashed.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Define "counted". Because whenever there's an adaptation of Greek myth stories there's no small amount of debating how accurate it is and if the "heroes" are going to be whitewashed.
    Yeah, but if it's debated, then these figures must count as heroes to at least the people on one side of the debates, right?

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    Yeah, but if it's debated, then these figures must count as heroes to at least the people on one side of the debates, right?
    Achilles was revered for his military exploits, he achieved plenty which is more than the Amazons can say. The Amazons in the new 52 are not even successful in the affairs of war. They use sex to catch men in a death trap, however first time we see them in battle, they got annihilated, by animals no less. They're pretty much the lowest of the low.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Geez...

    They are not better or worse. They are different. They are the apple to the former universe's orange.
    Different sometimes means not as good. I would call them the sin dried tomatoes to the previous tomatoes.

    You get sun dried tomatoes in lots of things these days. I'm allergic to them.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    I'm saying that you are clearly defaulting to "mythological goddess" Athena when you fill in the blank. If that is the case, why wouldn't the Amazons be the "Mythological" Amazons?
    mythological amazons are a sexist tale, made by men to demonize women

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Different sometimes means not as good. I would call them the sin dried tomatoes to the previous tomatoes.

    You get sun dried tomatoes in lots of things these days. I'm allergic to them.
    Not really.

    The closest thing I think lines up to "Comic Book" Amazons' departure from what they actually were in myth would be something along the lines of some sort of Wasabi Ketchup sitting where the Tomatoes should be with a sign that says "Tomatoes" over it even though it is obviously not a Tomato.

    Nothing really wrong with it. Just odd for folks to insist that the bottle of Wasabi Ketchup is the superior "Tomato".

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayswift View Post
    mythological amazons are a sexist tale, made by men to demonize women
    Did the "New52" team try to say that they were role models?

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    I'm not sure about "common parlance." As far as I know, the phrase is commonly used among right-wing types and the so-called "men's rights movement" (i.e., anti-feminists). I haven't noticed that it's common among the general population.

    Sure, I'd be interested in whether Jiminez personally would be comfortable describing Azz's Amazons or any women as "feminazis," and whether he thinks these Amazons are in any way (even as a caricature) presented as standing for feminists. I think he's a feminist (as I like to think I am), and most feminists, as far as I know, rightly abhor the term "feminazi."
    It's apparently been around since the 1990's and is in the Urban Dictionary online. The description there is interesting...

    There's a difference between a feminazi and a feminist.

    A feminist is someone who supports womens' rights. Simple as that. Thinks girls in poorer countries should go to school, is opposed to those music videos that consist of like, three minutes of boob shots, etc. Equality is cool, guys. Feminism is cool.

    A feminazi is not a feminist. Feminists believe in equal rights for us, feminazis just make us look stupid. Feminazis believe that all men are idiots, wearing a bra is a symbol of oppression (personally I find bras comfortable), shaving our legs is apparently showing that we GIVE INTO MALE PRESSURE TO BE ATTRACTIVE HOLY SHIT, snowmen must be called "snowpeople", and that any song that mentions a girl is supporting rape or whatever. Is apparently against sexism, making them a hugefuckinghypocrite.

    A feminazi is a sexist. A feminist is a supporter of womens' rights.
    Feminist: So, did you hear they have a sale on bras this weekend at Victoria's Secret? I think I'll go buy some, I've only got a few.
    Feminazi: NO!!!! HOW DARE YOU SUPPORT YOUR TITS? THAT WOULD BE A SIGN OF YOU GIVING INTO MALES TELLING YOU TO BE ATTRACTIVE! YOU STUPID FUCKER! HOW COULD YOU BE SO SEXIST? HEIL WOMEN!
    Feminist: wat
    by A girl who supports equality December 07, 2009


    So you have somebody who is apparently a woman and a feminist using the term to apply it to other women whose position she disagrees with. That being the case, it seems to me a perfectly valid term.

    The problem with the Azzarellozons is that they do indeed match the description given here of feminazis. I am well aware of the term being used to describe feminists as being crazy people with an irrational and unwavering hatred of men in order to shoot down those peoples valid points [in the same way the word misogynist is sometimes used against men for the same purpose]. The problem with the Amazons in the Azzarello run is that is actually describes them to a tee - which means that these women now embody the very worst view of what empowered and liberated women are all about.

    Now I have no problem with the Bana Migdhall having this type of attitude, because from the get go they were sold as the "baddies" to the Themysciran "goodies". The residents of Paradise Island showed what feminism was, while the Bana were just deluded psychopaths who got it all wrong.



    Men who treated women as property and took them into custody as spoils of war--and were never even put on the path to redemption--are still counted among the great heroes of Western civilization. That's why I mentioned Achilles earlier; his quarrel with Agamemnon was over would who get to take which woman as basically a sex slave.
    Using you example here, it is very easy to see how and why the story was changed for the movie "Troy." Here Achilles, one of the heroes of the movie, does NOT force Brisies, and in fact rescues here from the lecherous attentions of the wicked Agamemnon. Clearly the movie makers understood what I was talking about - that you cant have a character raping and murdering women and then have him turn around and be the good guy, redeem himself, and have feminists happily go along with it. Not without truly extraordinary circumstances like mind control or possession.



    "Counter-intuitive" means running against intuition or against so-called "common sense" (which often turns out to be common nonsense); the theory of relativity has been referred to as counter-intuitive--though so, of course, have a lot of much less brilliant ideas. Like I said, I don't mind my interpretation being called counter-intuitive. Interpretations that are solely intuitive tend to be boring.

    I do like to think I'm open-minded, and I'm at least aware that I'm wrong as often as most people are. One of the times I admitted I was wrong on around here is when I initially thought it was OK for Azz to have Diana call Strife a "bitch." Toastedbread and other posters convinced me the real-world usage of this word made it too offensive to some women for its use in this way to be a good idea. I think the same thing about Jiminez's use of the word to describe Diana..

    Intuitively, Wonder Woman as daughter of Zeus or god of war didn't seem right to me either, but I came around very quickly, and now I like these interestingly counter-intuitive ideas.
    In this case, I was simply referring to the ability of the readers to follow how you describe your assumptions about Azzarello's convoluted logic. The theory of relativity might be counter-intuitive, but that was written by one of the greatest minds of human history and should not be taken as the yard stick by which the term is commonly measured - in other words, something that makes no sense and fails in its purpose. [except to make money, I suppose].
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Not really.

    The closest thing I think lines up to "Comic Book" Amazons' departure from what they actually were in myth would be something along the lines of some sort of Wasabi Ketchup sitting where the Tomatoes should be with a sign that says "Tomatoes" over it even though it is obviously not a Tomato.

    Nothing really wrong with it. Just odd for folks to insist that the bottle of Wasabi Ketchup is the superior "Tomato".

    There is something wrong with it for some people who don't enjoy seeing feminist characters turned into misandrists.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Did the "New52" team try to say that they were role models?
    no, but why use the patriarch version of it? when marston clearly wanted them to be different and represent the feminism?
    seems very backwards for me

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