New Phil Jimenez/Wonder Woman Interview

[numberthirty]

Except these women aren't living in the past. They are alive now, 3000 years later. The Amazons have gone from being advance scientifically and culturally to culturally advanced by technologically stunted to an being backward in pretty much every area except for killing people.

Only if you decide to ignore the fact that the "New52" Amazons are a direct line from the Amazons of myth. If anything, Marston's comic book Amazons are the red-headed step-kids.

There is no "gone from" if the two things have no connection save a name a writer decided to use.

[numberthirty]

And as for the Amazons redeeming themselves - practically the first thing they did after beginning the path to reform was to see their male children murdered by some of their own sisters. Not Azzarello's fault, but certainly the kind of stuff Jimenez is talking about.

You're saying "They" like someone took a show of hands before it went down. Did I miss something?

[numberthirty]

There is something wrong with it for some people who don't enjoy seeing feminist characters turned into misandrists.

They were not "turned into". No one is trying to sell you on that these women were your old Amazons.

[brettc1]

You're saying "They" like someone took a show of hands before it went down. Did I miss something?

If the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people should do nothing, then the Finch Amazons are all complicit at some level in the massacre of the menfolk. The Amazons did indeed debate things in council before an assembly, and given their murderous actions in the past it was not hard to see something like the massacre occurring. Finch writes Diana herself as hopelessly naive.

They were not "turned into". No one is trying to sell you on that these women were your old Amazons.

Mere semantics. The Amazons of the Wonder Woman story have been altered.

[numberthirty]

If the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people should do nothing, then the Finch Amazons are all complicit at some level in the massacre of the menfolk. The Amazons did indeed debate things in council before an assembly, and given their murderous actions in the past it was not hard to see something like the massacre occurring. Finch writes Diana herself as hopelessly naive.

While I do agree about the way Diana is being written, it is pretty clear that the murders were committed in secret for a reason. While they could have figured for that outside chance, I don't feel like not doing so amounts to any sort of complicity.

[brettc1]

While I do agree about the way Diana is being written, it is pretty clear that the murders were committed in secret for a reason. While they could have figured for that outside chance, I don't feel like not doing so amounts to any sort of complicity.

Hardly a single Amazons stands up to Deniroe and her hate mongering and says it is wrong. Are they under threat or duress? No, they are just complicit in their refusal to disagree with a crazy old xenophobe.

It's hardly an outside chance when it's exactly how the Amazons have been dealing with men for 30 centuries.

There isn't even a decent show of grief among the Amazons afterwards when they find out their male children are dead. It's just "Yeah, we messed up. Sorry, we will do better."

Ugh.

[numberthirty]

Hardly a single Amazons stands up to Deniroe and her hate mongering and says it is wrong. Are they under threat or duress? No, they are just complicit in their refusal to disagree with a crazy old xenophobe.

It's hardly an outside chance when it's exactly how the Amazons have been dealing with men for 30 centuries.

There isn't even a decent show of grief among the Amazons afterwards when they find out their male children are dead. It's just "Yeah, we messed up. Sorry, we will do better."

Ugh.

They point out that the group in question was a minority.

As for the show of grief, it's not like there was a huge waterworks over their recently fallen sisters.

[brettc1]

They point out that the group in question was a minority.

As for the show of grief, it's not like there was a huge waterworks over their recently fallen sisters.

Actually Azzarello, for all the problems I have with his run, does show the Amazons grieving over fallen sisters.

If these Amazons can't even shed a tear when their children are butchered then they are being written as hardly human. And that is certainly also not backed up by Azzarellos' precedent where one of them was ready to kill herself out of guilt [though not for the murder of the boys father, sadly].

And if the group in question is a minority, why in the name of Olympus was there ever a question about Diana's Queenship. How can a small minority constitute a legitimate threat to her rule. Makes no sense. The very fact things go to the stage we saw is because the so called majority is hopelessly silent and totally inert. Practically every Amazon who actually says anything does so to question Diana's position or to condemn her for it.

[numberthirty]

And if the group in question is a minority, why in the name of Olympus was there ever a question about Diana's Queenship. How can a small minority constitute a legitimate threat to her rule. Makes no sense. The very fact things go to the stage we saw is because the so called majority is hopelessly silent and totally inert. Practically every Amazon who actually says anything does so to question Diana's position or to condemn her for it.

When it come to this, I have to agree. To whip that out in the final issue of the arc when there had been no hint of it up until then, was an incredibly odd writing choice.

[Tayswift]

Chronologically, sure. Culturally, they seem stuck in the past--as a result of their "old weakness" or vulnerability or fear for their survival, according to Diana. And I think the contrast between the antiquated views of women that they (and Hera, by the way) represent and the modern view that Hera represents is interesting--especially because Diana is able to lead others towards the modern view.

very nice Silvanus, but on our world it isn't women who needs to be led towars the modernity. Wonder woman only change women, amazons that should be the base for wonder woman be a great hero. I wonder where she learned all her values, because from amazons for sure it wasn't.
It's not matriarch that made us be on old and sexist values, it is patriarch and it was never really adressed on azzarelo run.
I think sensation comics, wicked and the divine, bitch planet touch the problem instead of 180 and fix the problem where we don't have one

[Silvanus]

very nice Silvanus, but on our world it isn't women who needs to be led towars the modernity.

I agree. But I think the Amazons and Hera represent old views of and by women, from times when oppression tended to force women to be afraid and defensive. THey don't represent modern women. Diana does.

Wonder woman only change women,

I don't agree. To one extent or another, I think she exerts positive influence on at least the minotaur, Ares, Hades, Orion, and probably Lennox.

I wonder where she learned all her values, because from amazons for sure it wasn't.

I think the Amazons taught her to love Amazons--which meant everyone around her, growing up. And I think feeling like something of an outsider helped her figure out that she should expand her love to include outsiders.

It's not matriarch that made us be on old and sexist values, it is patriarch and it was never really adressed on azzarelo run.

I think the run did address some of the pernicious effects of patriarchy. Look at Hades treating his former wife and his "betrothed" as property to be kept on a leash. Look at Zeus ripping the FB from his mother's arms in the flashback in 14, all because Zeus feared being supplanted by his son as patriarch. And look at the FB himself as the representative of what Marston called "blood-curdling masculinity."

[brettc1]

I think the Amazons taught her to love Amazons--which meant everyone around her, growing up. And I think feeling like something of an outsider helped her figure out that she should expand her love to include outsiders.

You're not one of us, but because you love us rejecting you it will teach you to love everybody.

There's a kind of "counter-intuitive" logic to that, but I think it would take somebody like Harley Quinn to really appreciate it.

[Tayswift]

I agree. But I think the Amazons and Hera represent old views of and by women, from times when oppression tended to force women to be afraid and defensive. THey don't represent modern women. Diana does.

women still opressed today. very little changed. my point still stands

I don't agree. To one extent or another, I think she exerts positive influence on at least the minotaur, Ares, Hades, Orion, and probably Lennox.

yes there is positive influence, specially on Ares. Hades he takes a bullet to love himself, still not sure if he freed his 'wife". Orion got better, but I can't say he tured out a feminist guy

I think the Amazons taught her to love Amazons--which meant everyone around her, growing up. And I think feeling like something of an outsider helped her figure out that she should expand her love to include outsiders.

I don't know, seems more that she is nicer and better than other amazons. this is the reason she loved everyone.

I think the run did address some of the pernicious effects of patriarchy. Look at Hades treating his former wife and his "betrothed" as property to be kept on a leash. Look at Zeus ripping the FB from his mother's arms in the flashback in 14, all because Zeus feared being supplanted by his son as patriarch. And look at the FB himself as the representative of what Marston called "blood-curdling masculinity."

i will give that on hades mii arc on hell, wonder woman said that she wouldn't marry him or anyone else if he didn't trust and respect her. but on the other side we still didn't saw wonder woman free poor persephone from her eternal prison. Zeus plan at the end worked, he was king of Gods again and first born vanished again. it may had cause thousands of deaths, but the plan worked very well at the end

[Aula_Magna]

very nice Silvanus, but on our world it isn't women who needs to be led towars the modernity. Wonder woman only change women, amazons that should be the base for wonder woman be a great hero. I wonder where she learned all her values, because from amazons for sure it wasn't.
It's not matriarch that made us be on old and sexist values, it is patriarch and it was never really adressed on azzarelo run.
I think sensation comics, wicked and the divine, bitch planet touch the problem instead of 180 and fix the problem where we don't have one

Wonder Woman symbolizes a GOOD feminist, what a modern woman should be whereas the Amazons symbolize the BAD feminist establishment, in a nutshell. Have you ever read anything by Camille Paglia, Azzarello's Amazons pretty much match her description of a BAD feminist, bang on. That much is abundantly evident to me. His story is not anti-feminist as much as just anti-Gloria Steinem, it borrows from a different, unorthodox brand of feminism. His run is about Love and Motherhood which according to Paglia, is the source of a woman's power. Also according to Paglia, the feminist establishment favors the pursuit of masculine power which results in an utterly dysfunctional society, like the Amazons in the new 52. In the end, Wonder Woman reconciles them with their feminine power as they all fight to protect a boy! I think that's the takeaway

[brettc1]

Wonder Woman symbolizes a GOOD feminist, what a modern woman should be whereas the Amazons symbolize the BAD feminist establishment, in a nutshell. Have you ever read anything by Camille Paglia, Azzarello's Amazons pretty much match her description of a BAD feminist, bang on. That much is abundantly evident to me. His story is not anti-feminist as much as just anti-Gloria Steinem, it borrows from a different, unorthodox brand of feminism. His run is about Love and Motherhood which according to Paglia, is the source of a woman's power. Also according to Paglia, the feminist establishment favors the pursuit of masculine power which results in an utterly dysfunctional society, like the Amazons in the new 52. In the end, Wonder Woman reconciles them with their feminine power as they all fight to protect a boy! I think that's the takeaway

Yeah, but only because the boy is the only one who can rule Olympus.

Now if Zeus had been born a GIRL...THAT would have made an interesting story.