New Phil Jimenez/Wonder Woman Interview

[numberthirty]

To ensure peace -

Is not the same as "To end conflict" after a stunned silence.

[Silvanus]

I use the word "art" ironically to make a point. But Ares would tell you [and indeed told Diana in the Azzarello run] that war is not about restraint and ethics. It is about victory, no matter the cost.

The fact that Diana does not use these tactics displays a rejection of the fundamental nature of war. But she can't change what it is, any more than Thor can change that lightning is made from electrons.

By your logic, it seems, any attempt to make ethical or restrained strategic and tactic choice in war would be hopelessly naive. So, you think that free will and responsibility end once war begins? Because of "the fundamental nature of war," the Allies had no choice but to firebomb Dresden? Soldiers who rape do so not by choice, but because they are bound by "the fundamental nature of war"? I don't agree. Sure, war corrupts, and its ugliness spreads everywhere; but some people at least try to resist the corruption, and, while it may be that no one in war is completely successful in that resistance, some people manage to make ethical and restrained choices some of the time.

Yes, Diana disagrees with Ares about what war requires. That's my point. Despite having the mantle of war imposed on her, Diana still, by her actions, exemplified mercy and ethics. That doesn't change the fundamental nature of war, but it creates a paradox in which the goddess of war represents peace.

In fact, the whole arc of the minotaur suggests that Diana's is the wiser path, even in terms of results (in the long run). If Diana hadn't spared the minotaur in #0, he wouldn't have been there to spare her in #35. Love and mercy are practiced for their own sake, but they pay dividends. Is that theory as strategically sound as Machiavelli? I don't know, but at least it's a good, inspiring fantasy.

[brettc1]

Is not the same as "To end conflict" after a stunned silence.

By KILLING ALL YOUR ENEMIES!

He literally says it! What is ambiguous about this?! Seriously, what!!!?

[brettc1]

By your logic, it seems, any attempt to make ethical or restrained strategic and tactic choice in war would be hopelessly naive. So, you think that free will and responsibility end once war begins? Because of "the fundamental nature of war," the Allies had no choice but to firebomb Dresden? Soldiers who rape do so not by choice, but because they are bound by "the fundamental nature of war"? I don't agree. Sure, war corrupts, and its ugliness spreads everywhere; but some people at least try to resist the corruption, and, while it may be that no one in war is completely successful in that resistance, some people manage to make ethical and restrained choices some of the time.

Yes, Diana disagrees with Ares about what war requires. That's my point. Despite having the mantle of war imposed on her, Diana still, by her actions, exemplified mercy and ethics. That doesn't change the fundamental nature of war, but it creates a paradox in which the goddess of war represents peace.

In fact, the whole arc of the minotaur suggests that Diana's is the wiser path, even in terms of results (in the long run). If Diana hadn't spared the minotaur in #0, he wouldn't have been there to spare her in #35. Love and mercy are practiced for their own sake, but they pay dividends. Is that theory as strategically sound as Machiavelli? I don't know, but at least it's a good, inspiring fantasy.

The decision to follow the ways of war is the decision to set aside humanity in the name of victory.

If you want a different approach to conflict, pick Athena. The goddess of wisdom, justice, and battle strategy. But Diana is not the god of those things. She is the god of war, the thing that corrupts.

[numberthirty]

Is not the same as "To end conflict" after a stunned silence.

By KILLING ALL YOUR ENEMIES!

He literally says it! What is ambiguous about this?! Seriously, what!!!?

"Must" bolded. If you take a look, the ambiguity isn't all that hard to pick out.

[numberthirty]

She is the god of war, the thing that corrupts.

Haven't seen a lick of proof to back this up since the new volume started. Shoot, even "battle strategy" have anything to do with Athena.

I take it you've seen something that convinced you of this?

[Baseman]

The decision to follow the ways of war is the decision to set aside humanity in the name of victory.

If you want a different approach to conflict, pick Athena. The goddess of wisdom, justice, and battle strategy. But Diana is not the god of those things. She is the god of war, the thing that corrupts.

Really? Granted my knowledge of the current WW title is limited but I don't believe justice was ever in Athena's area of responsibility.

[numberthirty]

The decision to follow the ways of war is the decision to set aside humanity in the name of victory.

Again, this is provably jive in the new volume. Cassandra being spared was an obvious act of humanity that did not result in the victory being handed to The First Born.

[Silvanus]

Really? Granted my knowledge of the current WW title is limited but I don't believe justice was ever in Athena's area of responsibility.

Yeah, she was referred to as Justice in issue 13 or 14 of the present volume. It's not the domain that you hear associated wtih her most often in popular sources, but it's on the list; Wikipedia calls her "goddess of wisdom, courage, inspiration, civilization, law and justice, mathematics, strength, war strategy, the arts, crafts, and skill." (Emphasis mine.) In Aeschylus' classical tragedy The Eumenides, she founded Athens' system of justice. There's a fairly recent book (which I haven't read) titled Athena's Justice: Athena, Athens and the Concept of Justice in Greek Tragedy.

If you want a different approach to conflict, pick Athena. The goddess of wisdom, justice, and battle strategy. But Diana is not the god of those things. She is the god of war, the thing that corrupts.

Her mantle represents one side of the coin (loosely speaking), and her actions represent the other. There's probably not much more I can say without being repetitive, as if I haven't already been, so let me at least be repetitive concisely: Paradox. Paradox. Paradox.

[brettc1]

"Must" bolded. If you take a look, the ambiguity isn't all that hard to pick out.

That's not ambiguity - that's emphasis. On the next page when she refuses he slaps her and calls her a failure. There is absolutely no doubt about the fact that Ares is saying kill you enemies. Any attempt to say something different is so far removed from fact as to be pointless discussing.

Haven't seen a lick of proof to back this up since the new volume started. Shoot, even "battle strategy" have anything to do with Athena.

I take it you've seen something that convinced you of this?

Apart from the fact that she has been called the goddess of wisdom and battle strategy for 3000 years?

Ultimately the defeat of the First Born can all be tracked back to Athena's plan in the first place.

Not that Azzarello writes her particularly well. Another thing Jimenez did better

[brettc1]

Really? Granted my knowledge of the current WW title is limited but I don't believe justice was ever in Athena's area of responsibility.

War calls her Justice.

[brettc1]

Her mantle represents one side of the coin (loosely speaking), and her actions represent the other. There's probably not much more I can say without being repetitive, as if I haven't already been, so let me at least be repetitive concisely: Paradox. Paradox. Paradox.

Which can be...

1. a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth.
.

...but which can also refer to...


2. a self-contradictory and false proposition.

[Gaelforce]

"Must" bolded. If you take a look, the ambiguity isn't all that hard to pick out.

Please tell me what is unambiguous about "Thine enemies must be eliminated lest they return for thine own head." and "A true warrior shows no mercy?"

[Silvanus]

Which can be...

1. a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth.
.

...but which can also refer to...


2. a self-contradictory and false proposition.

Yes. In this case, it's the first one.

ETA--Of course, even the first one says only "a possible truth." You're entitled to believe that ultimately, in reality, this possible truth is not an actual truth, and any proposition that someone who represents war in name can represent peace in deed is self-contradictory and false. For all I know, Azzarello might even agree with you in reality. Hell, even I might agree with you--at least partially and "in reality" (not in my interpretation of the book). And you/we might be right. But whether or not the book's proposition about War and peace is false "in reality," I find it to be an interesting, thought-provoking, and even inspiring proposition in fantasy, which is really what we're looking at if we're talking about the book. And sometimes in fantasy and fiction, "interesting" is more important than "true." I don't think any version of Wonder Woman is going to replace Sun Tzu and Macchiavelli on the shelves of military academies, but's fun to at least consider that fighting hate (and war) with love could be effective.

The decision to follow the ways of war is the decision to set aside humanity in the name of victory.

But Diana never made that decision. She was saddled with the title of War the way some people are saddled with the title of warrior (according to some of that word's dictionary definitions, thought not it's brettionary definition, if I recall correctly)--to defend the people she cares about (which, in her case, means everybody). Free will comes into play not in how she gets the title, but in how she lives with it.

[brettc1]

Please tell me what is unambiguous about "Thine enemies must be eliminated lest they return for thine own head." and "A true warrior shows no mercy?"

Oh dear gods, thank you Gael! I was really starting to doubt my own sanity LOL