"Blame it all on the monster" Action comics #43 (focused discussion)

[Auguste Dupin]

Because his 'shame' just doesn't work for me.

I don't see what's hard to get about Superman feeling shame about punching a guy, when said guy has been goading him to for the entire issue because his stated plan was to have Superman fight back so that he could justify using violence on him and his supporters.

They had been there for weeks. That the deadline for their dispersal had arrived and they were refusing to do so is the only reason Binghamton needed to justify cranking it up.

Just because manifestants refuse to leave doesn't give the cops the legal justification to roll them over so he could burn down their home. Cop aren't supposed to use violence unless they're defending themselves. Binghamton needs a story that doesn't look like the cops started a fight with civilians for kicks. They need to keep up appearances. You know, for the medias and stuff.

Is this the bit where the corrupt-folk confiscate and accidentally destroy any and all footage that shows the truth?

I don't remember them doing that. The only footage we know there is are Jimmy's pictures, and we know for a fact that they didn't destroy them, as like two millions people are watching them on his blog.

Binghamton had already authorised it - the batons were out, the SWAT was on site.

Just because the SWAT is here doesn't mean it's authorized to assault. That's not how that works.

[Auguste Dupin]

Protective custody.

The authorities have a way with words.

What about the house?
Protective custody too?
The authorities have a way with words....when they communicate with the public. Besides, I doubt the Obama we've been given in the last issue is stupid enough to buy the "protective custody" excuse.

Like I said earlier, I'll wait to see how they fudged the chronology of events.

Dude, you're the one who brought up the fact it happened before.

Not according to what Steve said, or even PotUS.

I don't remember Steve saying anything that implies the time it took to do it.

[adkal]

I don't see what's hard to get about Superman feeling shame about punching a guy, when said guy has been goading him to for the entire issue because his stated plan was to have Superman fight back so that he could justify using violence on him and his supporters.

He punched a guy who was actively inciting others and actively harming others.

Lee was soon going to have broken ribs.

A kid was in danger of getting squished.

Tear gas had been released.

A SWAT officer had just attacked another officer.

Was he supposed to just stand there? Wouldn't that have been even more shameful?

Just because manifestants refuse to leave doesn't give the cops the legal justification to roll them over so he could burn down their home. Cop aren't supposed to use violence unless they're defending themselves. Binghamton needs a story that doesn't look like the cops started a fight with civilians for kicks. They need to keep up appearances. You know, for the medias and stuff.

You should go back to issue 41. The block was already quarantined (for alien cooties). The troops were mobilised and they had 'a block to burn'.

I don't remember them doing that. The only footage we know there is are Jimmy's pictures, and we know for a fact that they didn't destroy them, as like two millions people are watching them on his blog.

I was being flippant. The only way he could justify and get away with it is if there was zero footage of what actually happened.

Just because the SWAT is here doesn't mean it's authorized to assault. That's not how that works.

Go back to issue 41. They had authorisation. Superman only happened to get there on the day they were going to make their move. It was just coincidence.

[adkal]

What about the house?
Protective custody too?

Nah, that's along the lines of the emergency order that the governor was trying to get over in Action - alien cooties.

The Kent graves, too.

The authorities have a way with words....when they communicate with the public. Besides, I doubt the Obama we've been given in the last issue is stupid enough to buy the "protective custody" excuse.

They have a way with words between themselves, too - CIA clashes with FBI etc (a staple in many a movie), and secrets have been kept from the PotUS (Parasite being on site, for example).

Dude, you're the one who brought up the fact it happened before.

I know. I'll try to avoid doing that again (I'm just so used to (and tired of) them writing willy-nilly and it not making chronological sense (it's not an OCD thing or anything...and, no, I haven't been tested)).

[Superlad93]

Well, the october sollicits (I think) hinted that he might consider quitting, but so far said sollicits has been split between exageration and outright lie so who knows.
Plus, the November sollicit also implies he's still doing his her stick so who knows.

I got it! Issue #45 will be what if more and more of the world is being tempted and corrupted (not unlike our own) and the idea of justice changes and Superman is the target because of this. It get's so bad that he questions what he's still fighting for if nearly everyone is mindlessly conforming to this idea (not unlike our own world). Then a new 'champion of the people' is appointed to hunt down Superman and bring him to the new brand of justice. The issue #46 is Clark truly alone in the world and seriously considering 'if you can't beat em join em'. I mean in a world where you are basically the only one fighting for justice that no one else accepts as true then should you still fight for that justice?? Oooooooo meta Pak

You mean, that Superman will do something that will "redeem" him in the eyes of the public, that will be taken in picture by Jimmy and go viral or something?
That's possible, especially if the "get his powers and costume back, but still has his identity exposed" thing ends up being true.

I'm not sure how it'll play I'm just spitballing mainly but yeah either that or use it to take down the corruption a bit or something like that. I'm really just taken with how Pak used Jim's pictures and the idea of him taking in the comics so far. That 'click click click' was so great!

[adkal]

I mean in a world where you are basically the only one fighting for justice that no one else accepts as true then should you still fight for that justice??

Justice is intrinsically tied with Truth - you cannot be 'just' if you don't know the truth of a matter.

'Truth will out' and 'justice will prevail (and all the morally upright will be vindicated)'.

[Auguste Dupin]

He punched a guy who was actively inciting others and actively harming others.

Lee was soon going to have broken ribs.

A kid was in danger of getting squished.

Tear gas had been released.

A SWAT officer had just attacked another officer.

Was he supposed to just stand there? Wouldn't that have been even more shameful?

You miss the point. The point is , nobody would have known any of that . If Superman strikes back, he gives Binghamton the excuse he needs when he will make his report to his non Shadowed superiors and talk to the press. "The situation was getting out of control and I did what I could to put an end to it".
Let's put it this way. Everything you mentionned is a gambit from Binghamton to get Superman or the crowd to lose it. If he does, he can use the incomming (and the fact it's gonna be his words against the rioters) confusion to justify his actions, including those he has already done. If Clark doesn't, however, he's in trouble because he has nothing to back up his claim that the manifestants were violent. That's why Lee was trying to convince the crowd not to fight back. That's why Binghamton was being increasingly brutal in his provocations. First, the threats, then he attacks Superman, then he attacks the crowd.Everything he did was to try to push Clark's buttons, because he needs that violent outburst from someone to justify beating the sh.t out of every one. By retaliating, he's playing in his hand (or he would, if not for the fact that the violence of the blow blew Binghamton's cover). That and the fact he thought for a second he killed him made Clark feels shame. And even if he had no other choice, I don't see how it's out of character.

You should go back to issue 41. The block was already quarantined (for alien cooties). The troops were mobilised and they had 'a block to burn'.

Being allowed to burn the block isn't the same as being allowed to beat the sh.t out of the inhabitants for being in the way, dude. Seriously, you don't get how cops in super powered armors beating up peaceful manifestants is going to look bad on the news without a good reason?

I was being flippant. The only way he could justify and get away with it is if there was zero footage of what actually happened.

So, all he would have to do it take Jimmy's camera. Not very difficult, happens all the time actually.

Go back to issue 41. They had authorisation. Superman only happened to get there on the day they were going to make their move. It was just coincidence.

It's not a coincidence. They litterally sent a Shadow Monster to distract him and/or kill him so that they could move in.

[Superlad93]

Justice is intrinsically tied with Truth - you cannot be 'just' if you don't know the truth of a matter.

'Truth will out' and 'justice will prevail (and all the morally upright will be vindicated)'.

Lol whoa relax, I'm not saying I think this for myself. I'm just saying that it's something that might seriously be considered by Clark during this arc if my interpretations of the descriptions for the issues ahead can be trust (the can't ). Plus I'm just being dramatic. Don't worry he's Superman I'm sure he'll snap back out of it and come back swinging and save the day like he's supposed to

[Auguste Dupin]

Nah, that's along the lines of the emergency order that the governor was trying to get over in Action - alien cooties.

The Kent graves, too.

Still, neither Trevor nor Obama pretended that it was for their protection, but because they wanted to figure out the truth about Superman.

They have a way with words between themselves, too - CIA clashes with FBI etc (a staple in many a movie), and secrets have been kept from the PotUS (Parasite being on site, for example).

Which brings me to my other point: sometimes, operations of that kind (secretive, illegal, and complicated to pull off) take time to be authorized. The right people have to be convinced of the necessity of it, a plan has to be developped, precautions have to be taken to make sure that whatever's going on isn't too obvious...
Frankly, the idea that it would have taken a few weeks after Superman came back and started fighting with cops (which is probably where they started to feel that finding out what was going on went from "potentially useful" to "imperative") doesn't strike me as odd.

I know. I'll try to avoid doing that again (I'm just so used to (and tired of) them writing willy-nilly and it not making chronological sense (it's not an OCD thing or anything...and, no, I haven't been tested)).

Well, haven't you heard? Continuity isn't important anymore. Get along with the program, man.
Anyway, if a continuity has to be guessed, I'd argue that Superman, then Action, then BM/SM and SM/WM in no particular order (because in this case it changes nothing) is much more likely than putting the story where he gets his costume after a story where he already has it.

[K. Jones]

Yes but the point isn't how hard he did or didn't hit Binghamton, but the fact that he punched out a cop at all. Superman himself said that Binghamton being a shadow monster was just an out and he still felt shame for his actions. In fact they all did in some from or another.

And yet Batman punches cops all the time and sleeps well at night. Weird.

I liked the way they played this for Superman. I also never thought Binghamton being a shadow monster was a cop-out, just because Pak is clearly going for some kind of sci-fi metaphor of like institutionalized corruption here with these shadow things. I haven't quite picked up the big picture of the allegory just yet, but the institutional aspect is there for all to see. How easy it is to corrupt the establishment.

[Superlad93]

And yet Batman punches cops all the time and sleeps well at night. Weird.

Somewhere along the line I think I phrased it wrong. But yeah it wasn't the fact that he punch a cop but the fact that he was playing into Binghamton's hands. That's why he felt shame.

I liked the way they played this for Superman. I also never thought Binghamton being a shadow monster was a cop-out, just because Pak is clearly going for some kind of sci-fi metaphor of like institutionalized corruption here with these shadow things. I haven't quite picked up the big picture of the allegory just yet, but the institutional aspect is there for all to see. How easy it is to corrupt the establishment.

Yeah I completely agree. I thought it was quite clever and pretty ambitious. It's cool and imaginative update to the golden age idea of Superman in a post Scott Pilgrim and post indie comics boom world.

[adkal]

You miss the point. The point is , nobody would have known any of that .

Why wouldn't they have known when we were actually shown all that happening and Jimmy was taking pictures?

If Superman strikes back, he gives Binghamton the excuse he needs when he will make his report to his non Shadowed superiors and talk to the press. "The situation was getting out of control and I did what I could to put an end to it".

Are you saying 'don't do anything if the police are beating on people because they will use that as an excuse to beat them more'? If Binghamton and the SWAT crew had stuck to railing on Superman he wouldn't have 'snapped'. He only let go of the chains because the others were getting hurt.

Let's put it this way. Everything you mentionned is a gambit from Binghamton to get Superman or the crowd to lose it. If he does, he can use the incomming (and the fact it's gonna be his words against the rioters) confusion to justify his actions, including those he has already done.

And the pictures? You, yourself, mentioned they were being uploaded and blogged, so how do they suddenly not matter?

I'm sorry, but even with the quarantine that was being imposed on the block, there would have been a media presence beyond Jimmy, and likely even 'eyes in the sky'. I'm not sure on what basis (or even how) the authorities were going to block that.

If Clark doesn't, however, he's in trouble because he has nothing to back up his claim that the manifestants were violent. That's why Lee was trying to convince the crowd not to fight back. That's why Binghamton was being increasingly brutal in his provocations. First, the threats, then he attacks Superman, then he attacks the crowd.Everything he did was to try to push Clark's buttons, because he needs that violent outburst from someone to justify beating the sh.t out of every one. By retaliating, he's playing in his hand (or he would, if not for the fact that the violence of the blow blew Binghamton's cover).

That's just it, though - I think Binghamton blew it himself by exaggerating the effect of the punch, but his 'drunken-righteousness', his zealousness, took him too far.

That and the fact he thought for a second he killed him made Clark feels shame. And even if he had no other choice, I don't see how it's out of character.

Meh

Being allowed to burn the block isn't the same as being allowed to beat the sh.t out of the inhabitants for being in the way, dude. Seriously, you don't get how cops in super powered armors beating up peaceful manifestants is going to look bad on the news without a good reason?

Alien cooties.

Go back to the end of issue 41 and tell me how those last two pages - those images and those words - do not mean they're getting ready to beat them.

It's not a coincidence. They litterally sent a Shadow Monster to distract him and/or kill him so that they could move in.

They were there long before Clark even crossed the city line. There was a deadline in place for the residents of 'Kentville' to disperse and the police were also waiting for an emergency order to be approved so that people could be taken in and tested for 'alien cooties'. Clark's 'timely' arrival was, at most, because of Jimmy's warning call and Clark responding to that or, at the very least, pure coincidence - him biking across America wasn't exactly a two-day journey, no?

[Auguste Dupin]

Why wouldn't they have known when we were actually shown all that happening and Jimmy was taking pictures?

Because the cops would have beaten the sh.t out of Jimmy too and taken the pictures.

Are you saying 'don't do anything if the police are beating on people because they will use that as an excuse to beat them more'? If Binghamton and the SWAT crew had stuck to railing on Superman he wouldn't have 'snapped'. He only let go of the chains because the others were getting hurt.

Well, it's the old "Ghandi routine": don't use violence to respond to violence, and let their use of violence discredit them to the rest of the world. That's clearly what Superman was going for here, but it doesn't work as well when he fights back. Even now, all some people remember of that crisis is that he punched a cop.

And the pictures? You, yourself, mentioned they were being uploaded and blogged, so how do they suddenly not matter?

Jimmy only has the opportunity to upload them because the crisis was over. So, again, beat the sh.t out of him when the real violence starts, take his camera, smash it, and bet the sh.t out of him somemore to be sure.

I'm sorry, but even with the quarantine that was being imposed on the block, there would have been a media presence beyond Jimmy, and likely even 'eyes in the sky'. I'm not sure on what basis (or even how) the authorities were going to block that.

Authorities infiltrated by Shadow things who can create a monster as a diversion and bring unofficial SWAT powered armors on site, and who has turned the mayor to their cause. Who's allied with another group who's entire gimmick is to use information against people. You really think controlling the media presence until you could show what you want them to see would be a problem?

That's just it, though - I think Binghamton blew it himself by exaggerating the effect of the punch, but his 'drunken-righteousness', his zealousness, took him too far.

Or Superman really did punch him harder than he thought. Either way, the impression I got was that Binghamton was hoping for him to fight back, but wasn't expecting him to go straught "for the head" the way he did.

Meh

Are you saying "meh" to the notion that Superman might feel bad about almost killing someone because he lost his temper?

Alien cooties.

Go back to the end of issue 41 and tell me how those last two pages - those images and those words - do not mean they're getting ready to beat them.

Again, being authorized to burn the alien cooties isn't the same as being authorized to beat up the people who stand in the way. This isn't yet Tien-An-Men.

They were there long before Clark even crossed the city line. There was a deadline in place for the residents of 'Kentville' to disperse and the police were also waiting for an emergency order to be approved so that people could be taken in and tested for 'alien cooties'. Clark's 'timely' arrival was, at most, because of Jimmy's warning call and Clark responding to that or, at the very least, pure coincidence - him biking across America wasn't exactly a two-day journey, no?

And it doesn't strike you as odd that Binghamton gets the authorization (which, really, means that Dawn Command let him move his troops)about five minutes after learning Superman's here? That not only do they have a Shadow Monster to use as a distraction while the cops move in, but also powered armors clearly here to beat Clark up if he interferes? That feel like "pure coincidence" to you?

[adkal]

Because the cops would have beaten the sh.t out of Jimmy too and taken the pictures.

We're going in circles now...

Well, it's the old "Ghandi routine":

A misunderstood one - he was okay with violence under certain conditions.

don't use violence to respond to violence, and let their use of violence discredit them to the rest of the world. That's clearly what Superman was going for here, but it doesn't work as well when he fights back. Even now, all some people remember of that crisis is that he punched a cop.

Which only happened because lives were endangered. If they had stuck to beating on him he wouldn't have done anything.

Jimmy only has the opportunity to upload them because the crisis was over. So, again, beat the sh.t out of him when the real violence starts, take his camera, smash it, and bet the sh.t out of him somemore to be sure.

Was it in Earth One that he had some auto-upload thing set up?

Authorities infiltrated by Shadow things who can create a monster as a diversion and bring unofficial SWAT powered armors on site, and who has turned the mayor to their cause. Who's allied with another group who's entire gimmick is to use information against people. You really think controlling the media presence until you could show what you want them to see would be a problem?

So they shut down internet access in the area? No on in their apartments were streaming footage from their windows?

A lot of footage we have had in recent years hasn't been directly through the 'traditional' media but via social forms. Are they blocking all that, too?

Or Superman really did punch him harder than he thought. Either way, the impression I got was that Binghamton was hoping for him to fight back, but wasn't expecting him to go straught "for the head" the way he did.

Nah. For as much as he was adjusting to his lower abilities, the guy is more aware of the egg-shell-skull rule than anyone ever will be

Are you saying "meh" to the notion that Superman might feel bad about almost killing someone because he lost his temper?

No, just to the idea of him hitting a human that hard while powered. Post-original-super-nova, sure, but not this guy - same guy who knocked back some humans 2 issues earlier and was now more powered than he was then.

Again, being authorized to burn the alien cooties isn't the same as being authorized to beat up the people who stand in the way. This isn't yet Tien-An-Men.

Those two pages say otherwise to me. Especially when coupled with the urgent 'does he have authorisation' message that Clark heard while fighting the shadow monster - there was fear and awareness in Kentville as to what was about to go down.

And it doesn't strike you as odd that Binghamton gets the authorization (which, really, means that Dawn Command let him move his troops)about five minutes after learning Superman's here?

Nope. As he points out to the other officers, they have had weeks to disperse. They had notice. Time was up (a little early, but time was up).

That not only do they have a Shadow Monster to use as a distraction while the cops move in, but also powered armors clearly here to beat Clark up if he interferes? That feel like "pure coincidence" to you?

The release of the monster was a fail-safe. The cops were ready and waiting to move in long before Superman rode up on his motorcycle and they tried to arrest him - when he first encountered Binghamton.

The officers were outnumbered and odds are tear gas wouldn't have been enough, so having a little more 'fire-power' would be both handy for them and dissuasive for the gathered tenants.

[Auguste Dupin]

A misunderstood one - he was okay with violence under certain conditions.

"Certain conditions" being the key word here.

Which only happened because lives were endangered. If they had stuck to beating on him he wouldn't have done anything.

Hey, I said it earlier, I think he's being too hard on himself, but I don't find it out of character for him to be like that.

Was it in Earth One that he had some auto-upload thing set up?

Don't remember. But I don't know if Jimmy Olsen, ex reporter of the Planet, has access to that kind of stuff.

So they shut down internet access in the area? No on in their apartments were streaming footage from their windows?

A lot of footage we have had in recent years hasn't been directly through the 'traditional' media but via social forms. Are they blocking all that, too?

HORDR-ROOT. Evil Mark Zukenberg. That's probably exactly what they're doing.

Nah. For as much as he was adjusting to his lower abilities, the guy is more aware of the egg-shell-skull rule than anyone ever will be

Possibly. Then Binghamton was probably hoping he would fight the dudes in armor to prevent them from hurting people.

No, just to the idea of him hitting a human that hard while powered. Post-original-super-nova, sure, but not this guy - same guy who knocked back some humans 2 issues earlier and was now more powered than he was then.

Because you really think that, when seeing the guy he just punched flying in the air and landing on the ground with the sound of something breaking, his first reaction would be "Nah, he's fine, I didn't hit him that hard"? Seriously? Who thinks like that? Would that be your first reaction?

Those two pages say otherwise to me. Especially when coupled with the urgent 'does he have authorisation' message that Clark heard while fighting the shadow monster - there was fear and awareness in Kentville as to what was about to go down.

Those two pages say that DAWN COMMAND authorized the intervention. And as much as they turned the mayor to their side, a secret organisation allowing one of their members to act is not an official authorization.

Nope. As he points out to the other officers, they have had weeks to disperse. They had notice. Time was up (a little early, but time was up).

No, he says that this is an unauthorized assemblee and that they've been here for weeks. He says nothing about them having been given notice.

The release of the monster was a fail-safe. The cops were ready and waiting to move in long before Superman rode up on his motorcycle and they tried to arrest him - when he first encountered Binghamton.

And yet, they didn't. Not until after Superman ride in and Dawn Command asked that he should not be arrested.

The officers were outnumbered and odds are tear gas wouldn't have been enough, so having a little more 'fire-power' would be both handy for them and dissuasive for the gathered tenants.

Dude, regular SWAT armors are more than enough to deal with and intimidate regular rioters, even with numbers on their side. The only reason they could have something that could beat up Superman is because they waited for Superman.