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  1. #16
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    No, I meant him. Superman. Basically, I think he feels shame because he puts himself on a higher standard (in fact, Pak's overall take could be summed up as "a genuinely good person trying to be worthy of the symbol he is made off by others"....which is brilliant if you think about it), but objectively, I think he's blaming himself too hard, 'cause really, he's the victim here.
    Lol oh my apologies then. Yeah I agree with you 100%. Pak's Superman take is really quite interesting especially when he puts Superman in these sorts of situations (Pak's Superman is due for a mental break one of these days from all the stress he puts himself under ). I'm reminded of Morrison's JLA run where he has Superman (electric blue) talking to Flash and lamenting on the astronomical expectations he deals with and how he doesn;t think he can live up to his own legend (he does later over a moon and wrestle and angel though lol) Oh and Superman is 200% the victim here. But I get where he's coming from and what the fallout could have been had it just been a cop.

  2. #17
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I'm only speaking from the confines of this run and this issue. How other continuities or even other books handle the character doesn't really hold much weight in the confines of this book unless specified (IMO). The reason why he felt shame over punching Binghamton is spelled out clear. Superman let this bad cop get to him and he could just as easily have become part of the confusion and mayhem as he let his (rightful) anger compromise him. I mean did you not see the big as life smile on Binghamton's face when Superman charged him? He even says 'finally'. He knows this will validate what he's doing. He know this will give him a free pass to spin hate and vitriol about Superman and the people that support him. Superman gave in and it could have ended a lot worse for him and those people. That's why he feels such shame.
    I saw it, I just don't accept the 'pick and choose' approach that's being put forward. The two incidents came out the same month - in one he's incited to punch a cop, in the other he knocks out numerous secret service agents in order to get to the President.

    It should be noted that, chronologically, the secret service knock-out takes place before Cop-Punch.

    How would the public have reacted to footage of Superman breaking into the White House?

    His after-the-fact-speech does absolutely nothing to address how they're supposed to protect themselves, even though he makes it abundantly clear that they are going to have to. How does the speech work when set up against all the times he has taken action against authorities, foreign and domestic?

    The way you're putting it across is that it was only 'shameful' because it was a cop and was done in public - that isn't shame, that's hypocrisy.

    The shame is misplaced - again, in continuity, he has knocked out cops, soldiers and so on - to just dismiss those incidents because they're not a part of 'this run' isn't fair as it distorts what has been established, especially since a key part of this run is that it's building on what has been put forward over the past 4 years.

    Superman isn't a pacifist, he (only) uses violence as a last resort. Here, handicapped with the loss of some of his abilities (no heat vision or super breath), he punched.

    And Binghamton - the guy who had already told other officers to list Dante smacking back the tear-gas can accidentally fired by an officer as 'unlawful deployment of chemical weapons' - milked it.

    That his zealous reaction blew his shadow-cover is a separate issue. One can only turn the other cheek so many times before action has to be taken to stop the abuse/attack/assault.

    From the start of the New52 (carrying on from the cycles in the pre52 (Legends is a key example) the figures of authority have been against Superman and the public divided. This time, instead of Robin getting beaten to pulp and the crowd feeling guilty it was Superman, and the officers having mixed reactions.

    Well she wasn't one of the cops I was talking about in that particular moment.
    Plenty of officers on scene were against what Binghamton was ordering them to do: Davidovitch (the guy who accidentally fired the tear-gas), Mizoguchi, etc.

    Plenty of others, though, were with Binghamton: Metro S.W.A.T for starters.

    I bring her up in my first post actually. She brings up the point that a shadow monster cop and an alien reporter aren't all that different if you think about it. She has her bias and need to protect one of her own. You see it all the time on TV when a cop who did something awful is being defaced, and some of his/her fellow officers come to the defense. They know they're wrong and only making strawman arguments but at best but they do it because that's one of their own. I thought it was a smart idea for Pak to add that in there.
    And, like I said in my first reply: her hypocrisy irks me, even though I understand it. As for 'they know they're wrong', we'll have to agree to disagree: over the years, from what I've seen, they believe they're right. Period. It takes a lot for any of them to let go of that - and it's one of the reasons why soldiers, cops, rangers etc have such fraternity and end up closing ranks against 'outsiders' when one of their own is threatened (and are such hypocrites when others do the same against them).

  3. #18
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But I get where he's coming from and what the fallout could have been had it just been a cop.
    If it had been 'just a cop' the punch wouldn't have had the same outcome - Clark is certain he didn't punch him that hard and, frankly, I believe him. Binghamton probably did well on the football (soccer) pitch.

  4. #19
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Lol oh my apologies then. Yeah I agree with you 100%. Pak's Superman take is really quite interesting especially when he puts Superman in these sorts of situations (Pak's Superman is due for a mental break one of these days from all the stress he puts himself under ). I'm reminded of Morrison's JLA run where he has Superman (electric blue) talking to Flash and lamenting on the astronomical expectations he deals with and how he doesn;t think he can live up to his own legend (he does later over a moon and wrestle and angel though lol) Oh and Superman is 200% the victim here. But I get where he's coming from and what the fallout could have been had it just been a cop.
    Yeah, there's a bit of that. It also reminds of the way many legacy heroes are written. Like, you'd have Wally West confronted to a specific situation and he'd be thinking "What would Barry do?". Here, it's kind of similar....except for the fact that Clark isn't doing it to another person, but to an ideal of who he should be. I find the idea interesting and revealing of the kind of man he is (and amusingly meta).
    Agreeing on the fallout, though I wonder which image would have sticked: Superman punching the cop, or the cops beating Superman up for being in their way.
    Hold those chains, Clark Kent
    Bear the weight on your shoulders
    Stand firm. Take the pain.

  5. #20
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    I saw it, I just don't accept the 'pick and choose' approach that's being put forward. The two incidents came out the same month - in one he's incited to punch a cop, in the other he knocks out numerous secret service agents in order to get to the President.

    It should be noted that, chronologically, the secret service knock-out takes place before Cop-Punch.

    How would the public have reacted to footage of Superman breaking into the White House?
    What? How does that work? The Cop Punch litterally happened the day he came back.
    Hold those chains, Clark Kent
    Bear the weight on your shoulders
    Stand firm. Take the pain.

  6. #21
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    I saw it, I just don't accept the 'pick and choose' approach that's being put forward. The two incidents came out the same month - in one he's incited to punch a cop, in the other he knocks out numerous secret service agents in order to get to the President.
    Well to address it a little more I'd rationalize it as Superman not having to worry about anyone outside of himself and maybe his super strong girlfriend having to deal with the retaliation of the secret service. He likely wouldn't have worried if it got out to the public. There's no dozens of people in danger I suppose. But idk I don't really read Superman/Wonder Woman and I don't have to for this book.

    His after-the-fact-speech does absolutely nothing to address how they're supposed to protect themselves, even though he makes it abundantly clear that they are going to have to. How does the speech work when set up against all the times he has taken action against authorities, foreign and domestic?
    Well he doesn't really know how they'll be able to do it and that's part of the point. It's uncharted territory for him and them, but the main idea is to stick together and try their best.

    The way you're putting it across is that it was only 'shameful' because it was a cop and was done in public - that isn't shame, that's hypocrisy.
    No. I'm saying that he was playing into the bad cops hands and doing what he wanted.


    That his zealous reaction blew his shadow-cover is a separate issue. One can only turn the other cheek so many times before action has to be taken to stop the abuse/attack/assault.
    Sure but Superman had a whole block of people to think about. Maybe he could withstand the fallout of possibly having a police force steamroll over him but he likely remembered that the dozens of people behind him couldn't

    Plenty of officers on scene were against what Binghamton was ordering them to do: Davidovitch (the guy who accidentally fired the tear-gas), Mizoguchi, etc.
    Yeah I agree.I just don't know what that has to do with Petruzzelli not feeling the shame. I agree that a few of them spoke out (never did I argue against that) but I also acknowledge that more than a few of them went along with it. Then when the monster was shown they felt that it was a scapegoat for their actions as shown with Superman's assessment of Hammerstein.


    And, like I said in my first reply: her hypocrisy irks me, even though I understand it. As for 'they know they're wrong', we'll have to agree to disagree: over the years, from what I've seen, they believe they're right. Period. It takes a lot for any of them to let go of that - and it's one of the reasons why soldiers, cops, rangers etc have such fraternity and end up closing ranks against 'outsiders' when one of their own is threatened (and are such hypocrites when others do the same against them).
    It's great that the comic has lit some sort of emotional fire under you! All that you're saying right here is very VERY true sometimes. They do believe they're in the right a lot of the time. People in authority have been known to close rank like that. It's a real thing in the world and I'm glad this comic could touch on this very real fact of life because it does happen a good bit.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 08-30-2015 at 05:45 AM.

  7. #22
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    What? How does that work? The Cop Punch litterally happened the day he came back.
    The four books are taking place at slight different times and...y'know, I'm just going to wait it out for it to become clear just how uncoordinated the overall story is going to end up being. I will say, though, that there is no way ARGUS and the others would wait nearly a month after the Reveal before taking action.

  8. #23
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Yeah, there's a bit of that. It also reminds of the way many legacy heroes are written. Like, you'd have Wally West confronted to a specific situation and he'd be thinking "What would Barry do?". Here, it's kind of similar....except for the fact that Clark isn't doing it to another person, but to an ideal of who he should be. I find the idea interesting and revealing of the kind of man he is (and amusingly meta).
    It's such a cool idea! Even when he's actually Superman he still think "I can still do better". I remember it was really getting to him during Doomed (closer to the end and a lot at the start) and during horror arc. I feel like we're building to something thing--coming to a boil if you will. All of the trapping and power of Superman have been stripped from him yet that mindset still persist. With all this talk that he doesn't believe in justice anymore and "the dark side" I wonder if that's a hyperbolic way of giving us a "Superman no more" sort of situation. Though I don't see Pak going that way but then again I never would have imagined he'd get so meta with Superman but here we are lol I hope the pay off is great!

    Agreeing on the fallout, though I wonder which image would have sticked: Superman punching the cop, or the cops beating Superman up for being in their way.
    Aw man if you thought the world of DC was split on Superman before lol. This actually gets me thinking: what if we get this sort of ending that's somehow helped by Jim's pictures? Like it's a fake blog post at the end of the comic and it ties into the stories end?

  9. #24
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    If it had been 'just a cop' the punch wouldn't have had the same outcome - Clark is certain he didn't punch him that hard and, frankly, I believe him. Binghamton probably did well on the football (soccer) pitch.
    Why are you so hung up on how hard he did or didn't punch him? The fallout I'm speaking of is that of Binghamton spinning the situation so that it was somehow Superman's fault completely, and that him and his men where stopping some sort of Superman army riot from overrunning the city or whatever. In the moment Binghamton could have authorized deadly force in response to Superman's attack and possibly have justified it.

  10. #25
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Taking this back a bit, what about his 'I'm not proud but it felt good' moment at the beginning of the story (41?) when he clobbered the little gang of misfits? Wasn't that 'lesson learned' enough for him?

    Is it because he's now having to actually smack non-powered people that's getting to him? He doesn't have the power to clap them back or stomp his foot, and a crowbar to the head can actually turn his head now...

    Is that where the 'shame' is coming from? That when he does 'take action' it feels good but because it's against 'regular people' he feels shame?

  11. #26
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    The four books are taking place at slight different times and...y'know, I'm just going to wait it out for it to become clear just how uncoordinated the overall story is going to end up being. I will say, though, that there is no way ARGUS and the others would wait nearly a month after the Reveal before taking action.
    I'm going to just assume that authorizing the kidnapping of civilians took some convincing (what with it being illegal and all).
    Because there's no way it happened before Action Comics, the book where Superman first gets his T shirt look and comes back to the heroic scene, what with him already having the shirt. Frankly, I doubt they felt the need to do any of that when he was lost somewhere in Alaska.
    Not that it really matters, but it is a bit of a strange assesment to make.
    Hold those chains, Clark Kent
    Bear the weight on your shoulders
    Stand firm. Take the pain.

  12. #27
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Why are you so hung up on how hard he did or didn't punch him?
    Because his 'shame' just doesn't work for me.

    The fallout I'm speaking of is that of Binghamton spinning the situation so that it was somehow Superman's fault completely, and that him and his men where stopping some sort of Superman army riot from overrunning the city or whatever.
    They had been there for weeks. That the deadline for their dispersal had arrived and they were refusing to do so is the only reason Binghamton needed to justify cranking it up.

    In the moment Binghamton could have authorized deadly force in response to Superman's attack and possibly have justified it.
    Is this the bit where the corrupt-folk confiscate and accidentally destroy any and all footage that shows the truth?

    Binghamton had already authorised it - the batons were out, the SWAT was on site.

  13. #28
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    I'm going to just assume that authorizing the kidnapping of civilians took some convincing (what with it being illegal and all).
    Protective custody.

    The authorities have a way with words.

    Because there's no way it happened before Action Comics, the book where Superman first gets his T shirt look and comes back to the heroic scene, what with him already having the shirt. Frankly, I doubt they felt the need to do any of that when he was lost somewhere in Alaska.
    Like I said earlier, I'll wait to see how they fudged the chronology of events.

    Not that it really matters, but it is a bit of a strange assesment to make.
    Not according to what Steve said, or even PotUS.

  14. #29
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    It's such a cool idea! Even when he's actually Superman he still think "I can still do better". I remember it was really getting to him during Doomed (closer to the end and a lot at the start) and during horror arc. I feel like we're building to something thing--coming to a boil if you will. All of the trapping and power of Superman have been stripped from him yet that mindset still persist. With all this talk that he doesn't believe in justice anymore and "the dark side" I wonder if that's a hyperbolic way of giving us a "Superman no more" sort of situation. Though I don't see Pak going that way but then again I never would have imagined he'd get so meta with Superman but here we are lol I hope the pay off is great!
    Well, the october sollicits (I think) hinted that he might consider quitting, but so far said sollicits has been split between exageration and outright lie so who knows.
    Plus, the November sollicit also implies he's still doing his her stick so who knows.


    Aw man if you thought the world of DC was split on Superman before lol. This actually gets me thinking: what if we get this sort of ending that's somehow helped by Jim's pictures? Like it's a fake blog post at the end of the comic and it ties into the stories end?
    You mean, that Superman will do something that will "redeem" him in the eyes of the public, that will be taken in picture by Jimmy and go viral or something?
    That's possible, especially if the "get his powers and costume back, but still has his identity exposed" thing ends up being true.
    Hold those chains, Clark Kent
    Bear the weight on your shoulders
    Stand firm. Take the pain.

  15. #30
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Taking this back a bit, what about his 'I'm not proud but it felt good' moment at the beginning of the story (41?) when he clobbered the little gang of misfits? Wasn't that 'lesson learned' enough for him?

    Is it because he's now having to actually smack non-powered people that's getting to him? He doesn't have the power to clap them back or stomp his foot, and a crowbar to the head can actually turn his head now...

    Is that where the 'shame' is coming from? That when he does 'take action' it feels good but because it's against 'regular people' he feels shame?

    You're overlooking the fact that Binghamton essentially had a 'gun" to the collective head of everyone on Clark's block. People could have gotten killed (cops and civilians alike) and Clark wouldn't be able to stop it. Clark not wanting to hurt Binghamton was less about not wanting to deck a weak human in the face and more about not wanting to add to the chaos of the situation, not wanting to give Binghamton the ammunition he needs to kill a whole block of people and get a standing ovation for it.

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