Gwen Stacy Appreciation 2018

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Gwen is fundamentally a supporting character so discussing her separate from others is going to be hard because content is thin...and we can gauge more by parallels and comparisons.

And yeah wondering if Gwen is gay or bi does lead to a larger issue of LGBT in Peter's supporting cast and so on. The good thing is at the very least, nobody among Spider-Man's villains has ever come across as being coded as "queer" so while Spider-Man hasn't contributed positively to representation, it hasn't harmed it either.

[I do think you come off as hostile and overly critical of Gwen, especially with your popular post of "the many gwens" or whatever, especially post George's death, you make it sound wildly implausible that the death of her father couldn't possibly affect Gwen so much. I agree that in the long run, Peter and Gwen may not have worked out, but to say they weren't in love or it was impossible for them to have ever dated because it's almost never shown is very hostile and inaccurate. Peter loved Gwen, and Gwen loved Peter. They dated, and he was considering proposing to her, that's canon.

I'd rather remember Gwen Stacy as the messy character she was before her fridging then the posthumous martyr and saintly one...I think doing the former allows her more agency and I think it's fitting in terms of victim remembrance and so on. Remember them when they were alive, and human...warts and all.

Gwen did love Peter and was devoted to him, but the Peter she knew wasn't the real person he was, just the one he presented to her. Peter lied to her repeatedly, consistently throughout that relationship. And that's what killed her. Peter let Norman Osborn who knew his identity and had amnesia evade justice. He did it understandably and unthinkingly at a time when he and Gwen weren't dating, but once they were and Norman was part of his supporting cast and obviously knew a great deal about Peter and his life...Peter had a responsibility to tell and warn people close to him about Osborn. Then you had the drug issue where Norman relapsed. So Peter had a warning that the Goblin hadn't entirely gone. And look read Issue #87, and look outside Peter's characterization and tell me what he did isn't gaslighting. The responsible thing for Peter to do is, break up with her then and there. He found out that she wouldn't accept him as Spider-Man, she took it badly...he also doesn't want to come clean out of self-preservation...instead he just goes back to the relationship and acts selfishly. When Goblin attacked and kidnapped Gwen, she had no idea, no way of protecting herself and no warning. Compare that to Mary Jane who in that Superior Spider-Man comic near the end, uses web-shooters Peter gave her to protect herself and her Aunt, and Aunt May and others from the Goblin attack. Why didn't Peter give Gwen her own webshooters to protect herself?

Peter in general is a good guy but a lousy boyfriend. Let's not forget he was gonna propose to Mary Jane without telling her his secret identity, which she already knew and which she obviously saw as a half-a--sed insult from a guy who didn't trust her.

[spidergwen]

Gwen is fundamentally a supporting character so discussing her separate from others is going to be hard because content is thin...and we can gauge more by parallels and comparisons.

And yeah wondering if Gwen is gay or bi does lead to a larger issue of LGBT in Peter's supporting cast and so on. The good thing is at the very least, nobody among Spider-Man's villains has ever come across as being coded as "queer" so while Spider-Man hasn't contributed positively to representation, it hasn't harmed it either.



I'd rather remember Gwen Stacy as the messy character she was before her fridging then the posthumous martyr and saintly one...I think doing the former allows her more agency and I think it's fitting in terms of victim remembrance and so on. Remember them when they were alive, and human...warts and all.

Gwen did love Peter and was devoted to him, but the Peter she knew wasn't the real person he was, just the one he presented to her. Peter lied to her repeatedly, consistently throughout that relationship. And that's what killed her. Peter let Norman Osborn who knew his identity and had amnesia evade justice. He did it understandably and unthinkingly at a time when he and Gwen weren't dating, but once they were and Norman was part of his supporting cast and obviously knew a great deal about Peter and his life...Peter had a responsibility to tell and warn people close to him about Osborn. Then you had the drug issue where Norman relapsed. So Peter had a warning that the Goblin hadn't entirely gone. And look read Issue #87, and look outside Peter's characterization and tell me what he did isn't gaslighting. The responsible thing for Peter to do is, break up with her then and there. He found out that she wouldn't accept him as Spider-Man, she took it badly...he also doesn't want to come clean out of self-preservation...instead he just goes back to the relationship and acts selfishly. When Goblin attacked and kidnapped Gwen, she had no idea, no way of protecting herself and no warning. Compare that to Mary Jane who in that Superior Spider-Man comic near the end, uses web-shooters Peter gave her to protect herself and her Aunt, and Aunt May and others from the Goblin attack. Why didn't Peter give Gwen her own webshooters to protect herself?

Peter in general is a good guy but a lousy boyfriend. Let's not forget he was gonna propose to Mary Jane without telling her his secret identity, which she already knew and which she obviously saw as a half-a--sed insult from a guy who didn't trust her.

I don't see how Gwen was remembered as a "saint", I remember Peter telling MJ he loved her way more than he ever loved Gwen, even though Gwen died for that POS.

Yeah, my original point was in response to your super negative portrayal of Gwen's character arc, she should have absolutely known, and after reading that "redeeming gwendy" artical, I agree they may not have worked out in the long run because Peter's a lousy boyfriend, especially to Gwen. She should have absolultely known the dangers of being with Peter, and I'm admitting the OG Gwen may not have ever been able to accept Peter was Spider-Man, as I stated before she was in hysterics worrying about just Peter alone, and especially post George's death she would have been even more paranoid for Peter's safety. But just because Peter was a crap boyfriend, does not mean there isn't a love story there. A bad, misogynistic, outdated one, but your original statement that they're not a 'real couple' is wildly hostile.

If I had to rewrite Gwen's death to something slightly less horrible, it'd be best descibed as https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1026323...-Turning-Point

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I don't see how Gwen was remembered as a "saint", I remember Peter telling MJ he loved her way more than he ever loved Gwen, even though Gwen died for that POS.

Are you calling MJ a POS? And yeah the writer said he killed Gwen because he liked Mary Jane but the fact is he also said that there was already a plan for a character death before he came on. If there were no plans, Conway would have broken Peter and Gwen up and moved her out. He didn't set out to kill her. He just saw an opportunity and took it. In any case different writers have done that differently. Some stories do hint that Peter liked Gwen or still pines for her...and so on. Others not so much.

But just because Peter was a crap boyfriend, does not mean there isn't a love story there. A bad, misogynistic, outdated one, but your original statement that they're not a 'real couple' is wildly hostile.

I meant they weren't written properly as one. Like in the case of Peter and Mary Jane you have a distinct sense of banter, interaction, and back-and-forth that you never had with Peter and Gwen. Same with Peter and Felicia. But generally not so with Peter and Gwen. But yeah they had a passionate romance and love. I am not denying that. Peter and Gwen did love each other. But at the end of the day, that relationship wasn't working. Peter lied to her, and Gwen's dislike for Spider-Man made him feel guilty and miserable and made him continue to lie to her. So he wasn't relaxed with her. Then you had the death of her father, and that just made it even worse. Whereas his relationships with MJ an Black Cat were a little more relaxing. Even when Mary Jane didn't "know" Peter was Spider-Man, she liked Spider-Man and certainly didn't think he was a menace or any such thing.

Is it plausible for Gwen Stacy to overcome her hatred and hostility for Spider-Man? Definitely. But not immediately. Were she to know, she and Peter would break up and definitely for a long-ish time. Which I think would have been healthier. Like Peter and MJ dated and broke up, and they returned stronger for it. And I think Gwen deserved time to find herself you know.

[spidergwen]

Are you calling MJ a POS? And yeah the writer said he killed Gwen because he liked Mary Jane but the fact is he also said that there was already a plan for a character death before he came on. If there were no plans, Conway would have broken Peter and Gwen up and moved her out. He didn't set out to kill her. He just saw an opportunity and took it. In any case different writers have done that differently. Some stories do hint that Peter liked Gwen or still pines for her...and so on. Others not so much.



I meant they weren't written properly as one. Like in the case of Peter and Mary Jane you have a distinct sense of banter, interaction, and back-and-forth that you never had with Peter and Gwen. Same with Peter and Felicia. But generally not so with Peter and Gwen. But yeah they had a passionate romance and love. I am not denying that. Peter and Gwen did love each other. But at the end of the day, that relationship wasn't working. Peter lied to her, and Gwen's dislike for Spider-Man made him feel guilty and miserable and made him continue to lie to her. So he wasn't relaxed with her. Then you had the death of her father, and that just made it even worse. Whereas his relationships with MJ an Black Cat were a little more relaxing. Even when Mary Jane didn't "know" Peter was Spider-Man, she liked Spider-Man and certainly didn't think he was a menace or any such thing.

Is it plausible for Gwen Stacy to overcome her hatred and hostility for Spider-Man? Definitely. But not immediately. Were she to know, she and Peter would break up and definitely for a long-ish time. Which I think would have been healthier. Like Peter and MJ dated and broke up, and they returned stronger for it. And I think Gwen deserved time to find herself you know.

Oh, I actually wasn't calling MJ the POS, just Peter. I try refrain from talking about MJ for the most part because I prefer Gwen, but I also don't like to publicly discuss her because I don't know that much about her, besides the Raimi films, her relationship with Peter and Gwen, and some of the gross things the writers did to her over the years.

I'm not even gonna bother commenting on Selina- I mean Felicia.

Your anti Gwen posts (they came off super anti Gwen) started because someone dared ask what sort of Peter/Gwen fanfiction us fans would like to see, just because the writers were misgoynistic doesn't mean Peter didn't love Gwen, and we're not allowed to ship them together. I ship them in a happy AU in which Peter wasn't a lying scumbag that let her die.
But you actively denied their relationship, saying "we never seen them date", and that "SM: blue dramatically retconned their love" LOL as if Gwen sat around all day long, scowling at the Bugle. She loved Harry and was worried sick about his wellbeing, bantered with MJ about Peter, worried about Peter's safety, and fought ANYONE and EVERYONE that bad mouthed Peter. So, no, Gwen didn't sit around all day, salty af about Spider-Man, she had a life outside of that, and it was nothing short of loving and dedicated to the people she surrounded herself with.

And if Peter hadn't lied to her for so long in the first place, Gwen just may have come around to liking Spider-Man. But in the long run, she would have been worried sick about him, because- oh, right, she loved him.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Oh, I actually wasn't calling MJ the POS, just Peter. I try refrain from talking about MJ for the most part because I prefer Gwen, but I also don't like to publicly discuss her because I don't know that much about her, besides the Raimi films, her relationship with Peter and Gwen, and some of the gross things the writers did to her over the years.

I recommend ''To Have and to Hold'' by Matt Fraction (considered one of the best spider-man stories of the last twenty years) and ''Web of Romance'' by Tom Beland. Among recent comics at least. Oh and ''Renew Your Vows''.

Your anti Gwen posts (they came off super anti Gwen) started because someone dared ask what sort of Peter/Gwen fanfiction us fans would like to see, just because the writers were misgoynistic doesn't mean Peter didn't love Gwen, and we're not allowed to ship them together. I ship them in a happy AU in which Peter wasn't a lying scumbag that let her die.

The poster asked a question about what we would see in a date with Gwen. And that brought up the problem that we hardly ever saw them date. And then I elaborated the issues. Look Gwen has a right to dislike Spider-Man and so on. She doesn't deserve to die for it and so on. But given that she had so little agency back then, taking the little that she did away from her doesn't strike me as correct just so you want to do a ship. As I said before you can definitely write that fanfic but you are in a "Gwen Stacy Appreciation Thread" asking for opinions. I do not dislike Gwen Stacy as a character. What I dislike is how her death was used in the story. And I'm all for bringing Classic 616 back if only to end "Gwenstalgia". If I see another tribute to the Brooklyn/George Washington whatever bridge and so on I'll choke. It's become ridiculous.

Cards on the table, I do think Peter and Mary Jane are the better love story and are more fun to see, than Peter and Gwen. I don't think Gwen needed to die for Peter and MJ to get together. Fact is Peter and Mary Jane are a couple and get together in a number of versions without Gwen, so the bond and dynamic works independent of the tragedy of Gwen that brought them together to start with. Whereas Gwen Stacy needs constant reinterpretations and changes...and nobody wants to faithfully adapt the original version, round up her personality believably and show that version with Peter on dates.

And if Peter hadn't lied to her for so long in the first place, Gwen just may have come around to liking Spider-Man. But in the long run, she would have been worried sick about him, because- oh, right, she loved him.

That might well have been the case.

[spidergwen]

The poster asked a question about what we would see in a date with Gwen. And that brought up the problem that we hardly ever saw them date. And then I elaborated the issues. Look Gwen has a right to dislike Spider-Man and so on. She doesn't deserve to die for it and so on. But given that she had so little agency back then, taking the little that she did away from her doesn't strike me as correct just so you want to do a ship. As I said before you can definitely write that fanfic but you are in a "Gwen Stacy Appreciation Thread" asking for opinions. I do not dislike Gwen Stacy as a character. What I dislike is how her death was used in the story. And I'm all for bringing Classic 616 back if only to end "Gwenstalgia". If I see another tribute to the Brooklyn/George Washington whatever bridge and so on I'll choke. It's become ridiculous.

Yeah, that's where the wacky notion of "f a n f i c t i o n" comes into play, where we can actually see them date. But for the most part, you were arguing we aren't allowed to even have that, but then in the same breath say "ship what you want BUT ITS WRONG" you're coming off as super biased. You don't see me bombarding the MJ thread with "Peter SETTLED for MJ" because I look at the story logically that that opinion inaccurate, and ugly.
But you came off as overly hostile against Peter/Gwen fanfiction, and that's messed up. I can't even read P/G fanfiction without seeing it turn into Peter/MJ because canon wasn't enough for their fans, they need to bogart what little Peter/Gwen fanfiction is out there too.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

But you came off as overly hostile...

I apologized for that and made that clear and I think I explained my point. I have nothing against fanfiction...

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

That's the one! This one retcons that Gwen was conscious during Peter and Goblin's confrontation and learned that Peter was Spider-Man. Shockingly, they kill her again, but I dream of a day the OG Gwen comes back from the dead and stays alive.

Wasn’t that a clone with her memories, which philosophically speaking is the exact same thing, but okay?
And they’re never bringing back OG Gwen for good. The ONLY people that’ll stay dead are her and Ben.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

Ballet shoes for movie Gwen, chucks for comic Gwen. Movie Gwen's a trained dancer, Comic Gwen fights using films like wheels on meals. I think we know who deserves the en pointe shoes.

Oh, I get it, in which case it’s obvious: Combat boots.

[Miles To Go]

I don't think Gwen needed to die for Peter and MJ to get together. Fact is Peter and Mary Jane are a couple and get together in a number of versions without Gwen.

Not to mention a couple of continuities with Gwen involved. The Spidey Loves MJ and Ultimate runs being standout examples of Peter having relationships with Gwen that ultimately just wind up putting him back in MJ's orbit.

Greg Wiesman's endgame for Spectacular Spider-Man was also Peter and MJ, but that was only going to happen in the TV movies he had planned after the series had ended. Peter and Gwen likely would have remained the dominant pairing across that until they graduated and moved up to college. Greg had no intention of killing Gwen either, so we probably would have seen how he would have tackled their relationship ending under more merciful circumstances.

Wasn’t that a clone with her memories, which philosophically speaking is the exact same thing, but okay?
And they’re never bringing back OG Gwen for good. The ONLY people that’ll stay dead are her and Ben.

That's the general gist, the excuse was that the clones had the souls of the original this time around

But even then, Gwen told Peter she believed he would have ended up with MJ even if she had survived the bridge, she could just sense it.

[eratas123]

Oh, I get it, in which case it’s obvious: Combat boots.

Doesn't really fit. The chucks work cause it adds to Gwen have a casual, freestyle mode of attire. If she were going for practicality she also would've taken off the hood, but that's never happening.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Greg Wiesman's endgame for Spectacular Spider-Man was also Peter and MJ...

Well in Spectacular Spider-Man, Gwen is basically like Ultimate MJ (childhood friend who had a crush on Peter since school). And the second season ends with Peter single and alone, and Gwen being coerced into a relationship with Harry Osborn. And I kind of saw that as basically an end to their attraction. I know a lot of people have problems with the cancellation, but I actually think that's a satisfying conclusion to teenage Peter's story. TSSM has I think the second most heterosexual Peter after Ultimate Peter...and I wouldn't hesitate to call that version a budding womanizer with issues of fidelity. I mean he's a bad boyfriend to Liz who he dates but still makes eyes at Gwen, and then when MJ advises him to be honest, he starts thinking Mary Jane is pretty too.

I am amazed that Weisman got away with that there. It's about the last Spider-Man cartoon that touches on romance.

That's the general gist, the excuse was that the clones had the souls of the original this time around

Never read Clone Conspiracy...(as with Gwenstalgia, I have a "I-reach-for-my-gun" attitude to the mention of clone, with the exception of Ultimate Spider-Man) but man is that stupid. Scientifically defining the soul and whatnot.

But even then, Gwen told Peter she believed he would have ended up with MJ even if she had survived the bridge, she could just sense it.

That's convenient. I don't think Classic Gwen would be so generous (read ASM#87). I mean consider that famous line between Gwen and Mary Jane when Peter tries to tell his supporting cast he's Spider-Man (because he's sick and depressed)...

Mary Jane: "Wow Gwendy, you sure can pick 'em. He's either a masked menace or a psycho case, take your pick!"
Gwen Stacy: (tears in her eyes) "Shut Up! No matter what he is—what he's done—don't you dare talk about him like that!"
Mary Jane: "Okay, Tigress! He's all yours!"

If you keep in mind Parallel Lives and so on...then it's impossible not to read this as Mary Jane making fun of Gwen Stacy (especially since she uses Jameson's "masked menace" which Gwen parroted) for not being able to tell Peter is Spider-Man and not being able to accept his double life. It's hilarious, and a little mean but considering Gwen's over-the-top reaction, not unjustified. The idea that Gwen and Mary Jane were these close best friends is part of the Gwen cult. They were friends but more like College Flash and Peter, a little apart, still trading barbs and so on.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

Doesn't really fit. The chucks work cause it adds to Gwen have a casual, freestyle mode of attire. If she were going for practicality she also would've taken off the hood, but that's never happening.

Even just with the hood DOWN, Gwen’s just... ew, if the mask is still on.
Combat boots because I think every character should be made more like X-23.
But yeah, she seems like a Converse kind of girl. Ballet shoes are way too impractical for anything that’s not ballet.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

That's the general gist, the excuse was that the clones had the souls of the original this time around

But even then, Gwen told Peter she believed he would have ended up with MJ even if she had survived the bridge, she could just sense it.

They had the souls, too?
Then those aren’t even clones, just clone bodies. They aren’t even just philosophically not different at this point, they’re the exact same people only on a strict medication schedule.

[eratas123]

Even just with the hood DOWN, Gwen’s just... ew, if the mask is still on.
Combat boots because I think every character should be made more like X-23.
But yeah, she seems like a Converse kind of girl. Ballet shoes are way too impractical for anything that’s not ballet.

X-23 runs around in what must be ass chafing leather and 9/10 times keeps her midriff exposed. The combat boots seem to be the only practical thing about her. I preffered her Spider-Gwen version/Shadowcat, she seems to wear something far more practical:



Earth-65 seems to be the world where fem heroes get the simultaneously practical and impractical costumes. As for the ballet shoes, I'm guessing they're not actual ballet shoes and more the style. Either that or Spiderverse Gwen's just that good: her combat style is very graceful among the Spiders and she incorporates actual dance moves into her fighting.