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  1. #1726
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelJD View Post
    Also I found Peter grieving and in pain due to Gwen's death (and what he might of played in it) to be a realistic reaction.
    In Issue #122 yeah. I mean Gil Kane's artwork basically draws Peter in a permanent death glare, and he looks like Frank Castle. In fact it has always been a suspicion of mine that Conway (who created The Punisher just a few issues later) actually drew on Peter in this issue as an inspiration for Castle.

    Cropped.jpg

    Basically Gwen's death could have made Spider-Man into the Punisher. But instead that thing gets defused and Gwen's death ultimately doesn't actually change Peter's character a great deal. In a few issues he's back to normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Hah, talk about good timing, lately I've been thinking about how grossly inconsistent Gwen was as a character even in the original run, and I was about to about to ask more about other changes she got, but you answered a day before I asked lol.

    Honestly, with Gwen getting her personality changed to first become a tamer MJ, MJ herself getting some weird haircut, it honestly seems like she was an early Carlie somewhat, with the personality being made around to be Peter's "perfect" girlfriend and other characters cheering for her to be his girlfriend, however Carlie is different in the sense that as far as I've seen, she was more consistent, and had more on the informed attributes, honestly I wonder how many people would detest Gwen if they truly knew who she really was, I was never really interested in her, but once I noticed those inconsistencies, I can barely call her a character...
    Oh, Gwen Stacy was absolutely Carlie Cooper when she was alive. Literally the same things people complained about Carlie was said about Gwendy. People disliked her. The fans disliked her heavily, female fans in particular (people always forget that Spider-Man had a significant female readership). It's only when she died that she got immortalized in the minds of some young readers. Gerry Conway by the way said in a 2016 Podcast that he had no real plans to kill her when he started. It was Romita Sr. who had the idea to kill a character gratuitously to get people interested and Conway nominated Gwen as the best choice (someone audiences would feel a little shocked got killed but who was actually a fairly expendable character..."the illusion of change"). Conway said that if there were no plans, he would have broken Peter and Gwen up, moved her out of the book, and have Peter and MJ date anyway. So it was never on the cards, not as long as Conway was writing, that Peter and Gwen would have had an happy ending but for her death...

    Quote Originally Posted by eratas123 View Post
    At this point I think most fans, or at least new ones, know her more as Spider-Gwen than they do as Peter's non-powered dead girlfriend, especially since Ghost Spider's staying power only seems to stronger and stronger the more media she appears in.
    Yeah...and I think the message is crystal clear. Gwen's days as Peter's love interest are over.

  2. #1727
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yeah...and I think the message is crystal clear. Gwen's days as Peter's love interest are over.
    ...Or maybe not, since in the Marvel cartoon she's still Spider-Gwen and the closest thing to a love interest Peter has in the story, especially with scenes like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpZJZobFZVw

    There are also some media that have them both active as Spiders, particularly Marvel Action and a few shorts that Marvel produces. I think the main message is that now she's one of the Spiders; the love interest thing is secondary.

  3. #1728
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eratas123 View Post
    ...Or maybe not, since in the Marvel cartoon she's still Spider-Gwen and the closest thing to a love interest Peter has in the story, especially with scenes like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpZJZobFZVw

    There are also some media that have them both active as Spiders, particularly Marvel Action and a few shorts that Marvel produces. I think the main message is that now she's one of the Spiders; the love interest thing is secondary.
    I thought she was only Spider-Gwen during the Spider-Island episodes. Did that change?

    (Regardless, that show isn't exactly held in high regard, and will probably be forgotten rather quickly.)

  4. #1729
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I thought she was only Spider-Gwen during the Spider-Island episodes. Did that change?

    (Regardless, that show isn't exactly held in high regard, and will probably be forgotten rather quickly.)
    And I don't know that show seems very chaste. Like Ultimate Spider-Man which didn't deal with romance. I will say that cartoon has the most hideously dressed Gwen ever. That neon pink leather jacket...yikes.

  5. #1730
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I never imagined you could actually kill Gwen. You have more intelligence then I gave you credit for. I fervently hope Gwen doesn't make a miraculous recovery in #122 (or in any subsequent issues). I also hope Peter doesn't mourn her too long...how long can he grieve over a person whose brain was constructed entirely out of old Pepsi bottles and whose personality had the exact color, consistency, and flavor of a loaf of Wonder Bread?

    As long as we're discussing the women Peter's mag, do not ever have Mary Jane Watson fall in love with Harry! Of course M. J. is immature (so is Harry; he's the one on LSD), but that doesn't mean she hates men. She just doesn't want any short-haired, neurotic, spoiled acid-head (or even a well adjusted dude) trying to own her. Keep her independent, but do develop her personality. You people haven't yet gotten over the notion that the way to give a female character personality is to give her a romance. We know M. J. isn't made out of Wonder Bread and mayonaisse like a certain happily-departed blonde-brain, but what is she made of?

    Jane C. Hollingsworth, Letter to the Editor, "The Spider's Web" Column, published in Amazing Spider-Man, #125.
    Man what the hell, is this what 70's edgyness sounded like? Hilarious.

    Anyways, I noticed a weird coincidence between Gwen and Carlie, basicaly, at the end of Spider-Island, Carlier tells Peter that he's Spider-Man, and that Peter is just a "costume" he puts to pretend to be normal, and Peter doesn't refute that, somewhat implying she was right, but that never happened before or during Slott's own run, then near the end of Clone Conspiracy we have Gwen-Clone saying that Peter doesn't try to be happy because he's too used to pain and finds it conforting, and Peter doesn't refute that, somewhat implying she was right, but that never happened before or during Slott's own run too, it's funny for two characters who have have unintentional similarities do the same-ish thing, it'd be even funnier if it happened with different writters lol.

    Also, while I detest Ultimate's influence on Spider-Man, what they did with her there before the whole Gwen-Carnage-clone thing was a step on the right direction for her as a character, since it gave her a personality and she wasn't a love interest for Peter, then Spider-Gwen happened and Gwen is not seen as just "Spider-Man's girlfriend who got bridged" anymore, which is really surprising since I didn't think that was possible, I think she'll still be seen as that for many years, and perhaps will always be a character who had that done to her at some point (Same way Aquaman is still known as being lame despite only the Super Friends version of him sucking), but again, she's seen as more than that.

  6. #1731
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    And I don't know that show seems very chaste. Like Ultimate Spider-Man which didn't deal with romance. I will say that cartoon has the most hideously dressed Gwen ever. That neon pink leather jacket...yikes.
    Cartoons like "Spider-Man 2017" don't really do romance anyway.

    It seems like "Into the Spider-Verse" will color people's perceptions on Spider-Gwen (since that's the place many people saw her for the first time), and that film distinctly plays up Miles/Gwen. (Peter B. didn't seem to know or acknowledge Gwen as being someone he knew at all.)

  7. #1732
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Man what the hell, is this what 70's edgyness sounded like? Hilarious.
    Miss Hollingsworth must be an old woman by now, if she is still with us. But yeah, that letter is semi-legendary. Brian Cronin called it his favorite letter ever published. And yeah, when people talk about fandoms from a civilized era...nope they were just like us.

    Anyways, I noticed a weird coincidence between Gwen and Carlie, basicaly, at the end of Spider-Island, Carlier tells Peter that he's Spider-Man, and that Peter is just a "costume" he puts to pretend to be normal, and Peter doesn't refute that...
    That is Slott's impression and I think it's basically a fair reading. I mean "Plain Ol' Peter" lies all the time. To his friends, his loved-ones, everyone. Gwen Stacy didn't die because Peter webbed her rather than dove after her or what-have-you...I always found that silly and besides the point. The problem is that Peter lied and endangered his friends by letting Norman Osborn go after he got amnesia. He and Norman became part of the same supporting cast, and Peter basically put a time bomb in the lives of his friends and circle. One that went off during the Drug Issue which is basically a warning. Then the second time it went off for the last time. Look at Superior Spider-Man and how well Mary Jane was able to save herself and her friends from the Green Goblin when he resurfaced...would Gwen have been able to do similarly had she known? Who knows? Peter never gave her that chance. And you know Peter never told Mary Jane his secret...she learned on her own.

    Peter was a terrible boyfriend to Gwen (ASM#87, that whole confess and then have Prowler pose as Spidey...today we call that gaslighting) and he is responsible for her death. But for a lot of reasons the story doesn't allow him to take responsibility. It's always the same "webbing caught her up" which is basically a stupid plot point. He doesn't once think the real reasons why Gwen was endangered.

    ...Gwen is not seen as just "Spider-Man's girlfriend who got bridged" anymore, which is really surprising since I didn't think that was possible...
    The Andrew Garfield movies killed that story for good. This was it. The one chance to recreate it and you can only do it once and they blew it. Nobody liked Emma Stone's death. Gwen Stacy's death doesn't work without the Mary Jane love triangle, and MJ being the girl audiences want Peter to be with, and the one who stays with Peter in grief.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 12-28-2018 at 09:40 PM. Reason: change

  8. #1733
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Hah, talk about good timing, lately I've been thinking about how grossly inconsistent Gwen was as a character even in the original run, and I was about to about to ask more about other changes she got, but you answered a day before I asked lol.

    Honestly, with Gwen getting her personality changed to first become a tamer MJ, MJ herself getting some weird haircut, it honestly seems like she was an early Carlie somewhat, with the personality being made around to be Peter's "perfect" girlfriend and other characters cheering for her to be his girlfriend, however Carlie is different in the sense that as far as I've seen, she was more consistent, and had more on the informed attributes, honestly I wonder how many people would detest Gwen if they truly knew who she really was, I was never really interested in her, but once I noticed those inconsistencies, I can barely call her a character...

    I'll say that I only somewhat agree with Ditko Gwen being above the rest, however, I think that version is a bad character anyways, she was basicaly Liz 2.0 who kept her bitchy attitude while also liking Peter (Since Liz did stop being as bitchy with him once she got that crush on him), and like most Ditko era douchebags, she barely has good traits, but hey, she was her own character back then, more than what we can say of the rest...
    Early Gwen and Carlie do have at least one thing in common, their inconsistencies regarding their feelings for Peter.

    Gwen starts off as an ice queen always bitching towards Peter over the way he acts, and then at some point I guess she becomes jealous he doesn't give her as much attention and suddenly she starts liking him, but still not showing towards him. It isn't really until after the whole George Stacy mind control mix up and they become a full couple is when her character turns a complete 180 into being completely nice and kind.

    Carlie starts off apparently already liking Peter and wanting to be with him, but we never really see that, and anytime Peter tries to do something with her, she blows him off or shuts him down because he's not asking to do it as a couple, and then basically spends the rest of the time trying to force him to say something while acting pretty cold, even going so far to go all "boyfriend or no friend".
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen: Ghost Spider, Sonic The Hedgehog, Absolute Carnage, Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man, Gwenpool Strikes Back, Runaways, The White Trees

  9. #1734
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eratas123 View Post
    ...Or maybe not, since in the Marvel cartoon she's still Spider-Gwen and the closest thing to a love interest Peter has in the story, especially with scenes like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpZJZobFZVw
    A valid point.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  10. #1735
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    You ain't got a chance, boy
    What you think? (Huh?)
    I thrown in everything but the kitchen sink (Yeah)
    I try to be friendly in the neighborhood (Okay)
    I know all the little grannies wanna sip they tea (Yeah)
    And here you come, all bargin' in (Huh?)
    All ugly like a brown fur cardigan
    We receive the monologue and the arguin'
    I'm like

    WHO IN HERE TRYNA START A RIOT?!
    I don't blind date I make the direct market vibrate

  11. #1736
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    To be fair to Gwen/Miles, the movies actually made it really damn good and viable, very much unlike the comics. I'd definitely not mind/approve, especially since the sequel is apparently going for it. That and it's infinitely better than the Peter/Spider-Gwen idea that fans like purely because 'Gwen Stacy and Peter Parker belong together', nevermind that they're nothing like each other's counterparts and this relationship would explode from the sheer angst and trauma from all the characters involved.

    If they had to do a Peter/Spider-Gwen romance I would've preferred if her Peter became her 'guy in the chair' rather than just dying off so early so Gwen can be a criminal under the most contrived fucking circumstances - it would also patch that annoying plot trend of Gwen apparently knowing Wasp and yet she never comes up in the story proper. Hell, Spider-Gwen's mom is already dead by the time of the series start, so why not just make her the person sacrificed?

  12. #1737
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eratas123 View Post
    To be fair to Gwen/Miles, the movies actually made it really damn good and viable, very much unlike the comics. I'd definitely not mind/approve, especially since the sequel is apparently going for it....
    Yeah, no thanks. I'll never be a fan of the pairing. I much prefer Miles with either Lana or Kamala (I vacillate between which I like him with more). I don't think the two should be together just because they are random spider people who happen to meet. Still, this is an AU, so to each their own.
    Last edited by Celgress; 12-28-2018 at 11:04 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  13. #1738
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Miss Hollingsworth must be an old woman by now, if she is still with us. But yeah, that letter is semi-legendary. Brian Cronin called it his favorite letter ever published. And yeah, when people talk about fandoms from a civilized era...nope they were just like us.

    That is Slott's impression and I think it's basically a fair reading. I mean "Plain Ol' Peter" lies all the time. To his friends, his loved-ones, everyone. Gwen Stacy didn't die because Peter webbed her rather than dove after her or what-have-you...I always found that silly and besides the point. The problem is that Peter lied and endangered his friends by letting Norman Osborn go after he got amnesia. He and Norman became part of the same supporting cast, and Peter basically put a time bomb in the lives of his friends and circle. One that went off during the Drug Issue which is basically a warning. Then the second time it went off for the last time. Look at Superior Spider-Man and how well Mary Jane was able to save herself and her friends from the Green Goblin when he resurfaced...would Gwen have been able to do similarly had she known? Who knows? Peter never gave her that chance. And you know Peter never told Mary Jane his secret...she learned on her own.

    Peter was a terrible boyfriend to Gwen (ASM#87, that whole confess and then have Prowler pose as Spidey...today we call that gaslighting) and he is responsible for her death. But for a lot of reasons the story doesn't allow him to take responsibility. It's always the same "webbing caught her up" which is basically a stupid plot point. He doesn't once think the real reasons why Gwen was endangered.
    If that's Slott's impression then it's hilariously wrong even in his own run, being Spider-Man dominates his life, and it's definitely part of who he is, but it's not who he is, since he still desires to do normal person stuff, hell, he even wants to be liked as Peter and not as Spider-Man by other people, and he just that he really wants to keep it a secret since he thinks it's for the best/fears that word would gets out about it/doesn't want other to worry (Specialy Aunt May), and again, it just being a bad decision hardly means that Spider-Man is the "dominant" side of his personality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Early Gwen and Carlie do have at least one thing in common, their inconsistencies regarding their feelings for Peter.

    Gwen starts off as an ice queen always bitching towards Peter over the way he acts, and then at some point I guess she becomes jealous he doesn't give her as much attention and suddenly she starts liking him, but still not showing towards him. It isn't really until after the whole George Stacy mind control mix up and they become a full couple is when her character turns a complete 180 into being completely nice and kind.

    Carlie starts off apparently already liking Peter and wanting to be with him, but we never really see that, and anytime Peter tries to do something with her, she blows him off or shuts him down because he's not asking to do it as a couple, and then basically spends the rest of the time trying to force him to say something while acting pretty cold, even going so far to go all "boyfriend or no friend".
    Small correction, but in ASM#31 itself Gwen is initialy the one who's most willing to give him another chance after he ignores everyone, and even says that she couldn't help feeling attracted towards him, it's only after Peter acts rude towards her twice that she starts to act like a bitch towards him, so Gwen liking him was always there, but yeah, the way she acted on it was inconsistent, even in Ditko's run since in ASM#34 she was a bitch towards him, although still curious, but then in ASM#36 she's trying to be nice with him all of the sudden, and earlier in the same issue she was annoyed when Peter acted rude to another girl who tried to invite him to a party.

    So yeah, Gwen was never consistent even in Ditko's own run, she just had more of her own personality compared to others, and even with that inconsistency she's still recognizable as the same character, after that...

    Carlie, well she looks like someone wanting romance while being terrible at it herself, wanting Peter to do all the work, and never showing her own emotions, which is pretty stupid, but can be understandable, although it's kinda odd since she didn't look like that when I read Big Time, although it's possible she developed past that during BND.

    So yeah, both started as bitches with questionable ways on acting out the emotions (Gwen by being a bully tsundere, Carlie by being distant but still wanting romance) and mellowed out after a while, holy shit Carlie just gets more and more similar to Gwen, starting to think my jokes about Carlie getting bridged will happen eventualy lol, and maybe about 50 years after that we'll get Spider-Carlie
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 12-28-2018 at 11:08 PM.

  14. #1739
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I thought she was only Spider-Gwen during the Spider-Island episodes. Did that change?
    She'll probably get her powers back during the Superior storyline.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Cartoons like "Spider-Man 2017" don't really do romance anyway.
    Marvel cartoons in general don't really do romance these days.

  15. #1740
    Amazing Member spidergwen's Avatar
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    This thread is wild, and not in a fun way. "What sort of Peter/Gwen fanfic would fans like to see?" turned into a metathesis on why we're not allowed to ship them together because the original writers were so incompetent with writing them consistently and complaining about AUs being different (LOL), when the entire idea of fanfic is to get something the official writers never gave us. A wacky au with a happy ending, untapped potential of two characters that fell in love and never got to see it through, in practically EVERY AU Peter and Gwen are ripped apart.

    "Maybe it's for a REASON" nah, it's lazy writing at this point.

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