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  1. #1831
    Incredible Member AngelJD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spidergwen View Post
    I just realized RCO has Issue #121 on there, so I finally read it and decided to hunt down Peter and Gwen's last conversation in issue #120 and it's painful. Just a few pages after their last conversation, Peter throws someone off a rooftop, and catches him and webbing each of his limbs.

    I get that the writers hated Gwen, but like.. maybe be less cocky about killing her off and aim for something more plausible and then rubbing it in our faces that Peter knows how to catch people properly.
    Attachment 75521


    Reading about and the interviews Stan Lee and Spider-Man writer afterwards Gerry Conway had about the past paints not a great picture to Gerry towards Gwen in fairness vs MJ.
    When googling 'Spider-Man Conway" in google amoung the first reports that show up is called "Gerry Conway Blasts Gwen Stacy, Criticizes Stan Lee in New Book on Marvel".
    From that report:
    "In a just-released excerpt from the upcoming book Marvel Comics: The Untold Story, legendary Amazing Spider-Man writer Gerry Conway had the unique ability to kick a character that he had already killed while she was down when discussing the decision to kill Peter Parker's girlfriend, Gwen Stacy, rather than his elderly Aunt May.
    “She was a nonentity, a pretty face. She brought nothing to the mix. It made no sense to me that Peter Parker would end up with a babe like that who had no problems," Conway is quoted as saying in the book.

    "Only a damaged person would end up with a damaged guy like Peter Parker. And Gwen Stacy was perfect! It was basically Stan fulfilling Stan’s own fantasy. Stan married a woman who was pretty much a babe," Conway continued. "Joan Lee was a very attractive blond who was obviously Stan’s ideal female. And I think Gwen was simply Stan replicating his wife, just like Sue Storm was a replication of his wife. And that’s where his blind spot was. The amazing thing was that he created a character like Mary Jane Watson, who was probably the most interesting female character in comics, and he never used her to the extent that he could have. Instead of Peter Parker’s girlfriend, he made her Peter Parker’s best friend’s girlfriend. Which is so wrong, and so stupid, and such a waste. So killing Gwen was a totally logical if not inevitable choice.”

    So he saw MJ as 'Broken/damaged' and only 'broken people can be together' viewpoint. Reading the past issues I can't see how MJ was broken (note only taking from the series began to #121 ONLY as a source like a reader of that time period and not what writers game as developments or recons as in their power (and Gwen could of had in turn). Also I wasn't a fan of MJ that much till and after #122 kick started her path in developments and her developments so that's good for her and that MJ she developed into was a MJ I became a fan of (though 616 MJ has had a rollercoaster in my view of developments/positives but also negatives making her fall in the midway of favorite MJ versions right now but always a possibility to rise by writers). The past first 616 MJ presented to me in those issues as a 'party girl' only and 'selfish' (and didn't know Peter was Spider-man by seeing him jump out his window as Spider-man as that came much later in a recon) before 121 then 122 with Gwen's death being the writer's catalyst/started the movement to a self-less hero developed MJ that I'm a fan of. If that's what he meant as 'broken' being her 'party girl' and 'Me Me Me' and he had ideas to alter that I would be happy for a writer to ideas that allows character growth and desire such. But I don't feel that was the goal really.

    In other interviews he has stated that he read stories (a influencing factor in his writing) where in those tales characters unexpectedly died. He felt it kept it interesting. Then Marvel saw declining sales and thus wanted a 'death' issue to push numbers up (same old story as today). Aunt May was going to be killed (in doing so we might of also lost so good developments and versions of Aunt May presented by other writers and influencing factors like the movie Spider-Man: Enter the Spider-verse Aunt May that I loved) but Conway pushed for Gwen to die.
    He wanted the girlfriend/'MJ competition' out so he could pair up Peter and MJ. If he would of been denied he stated that he would of had both Gwen and peter break up and Gwen leaving for MJ and Peter to get together. Instead of seeing a weakness and then form questions to why then answers in character developments and plots for Gwen to become better he just killed her and possibilities in character developments for other further writers who might of had ideas. So Gwen died after her father died before so MJ and Peter can hook up and push sale numbers up. I've seen this before with fanfic writers in shipping wars and 'ron the death eaters' tales. Writers are human and have personal views and desires and Conway desired MJ and Peter together and had ideas for MJ mostly and the two coming together and Gwen to him was a pest to kill then develop.

    Overall as Stan Lee said "he wrote the stories he wanted to write" and the same applies to all writers. We might not agree with what they want however or share viewpoints, effect by different cultures, or see different directions or possibilities.

  2. #1832
    Amazing Member spidergwen's Avatar
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    I'm so tired of this argument that Gwen deserved to die and should stay dead, we get it. There's a big fat, gigantic chance E616 Gwen is never coming back, we SUPER get it, it's rehashed every single day.

    My original point, Peter already knows how to catch someone safely, and it turned into a metathesis on how much the writers hate Gwen, and how its their "right" to be misogynistic and backwards, and it's my right to critique their crappy tactics. These writers are so incompetent, it's literally ONE issue before they kill Gwen off the same way Peter caught this rando. They pulled this during their clone saga, Peter screams in Gwen clones face she died MONTHS ago, and in the literal next issue the Gwen clone comments she's been dead for two years.

    Writers make mistakes, they can't even recall what they did one issue before. Talk about lazy.
    "Sins Past" was deliberate character assassination (the writers admitted to pulling it out of thin air) and the OG Gwen was nothing but fiercely loyal to Peter Parker and it got her killed.

  3. #1833
    Incredible Member AngelJD's Avatar
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    Now aout the web being destroyed and that is how the watches worked. Based on the issue wasn't only the 616 link on the Web was cut and collect by Spider-Norman? So the web still exists (once agian confusing to it's purposes in the Grand Multiverse that it had to be protected and all during Web Warriors and other issues it was shown in plus Annie (from Renew Your Vows) being the new 'weaver')? But that disconnected when many of the spider's with watches was in 616 caused them to malfunction and break (vs a Spider on Earth number not 616 thus those watches were fine and still can be used). I think Jessica used a watch somehow to get home in Spider Force #3 (but I can be wrong). Right now thanks to Gwen Goblin (don't know the Earth # of that Multiverse Earth-65 Gwen had a adventure on in her series) in Ghost-Spider #3 Gwen was given a new device that for safety reasons I guess only she can used as setup by Goblin Gwen using Earth-65 Gwen's blood that told the decie only Earth-65 Gwen (or Gwens maybe) can use it.

    That isn't a big deal as 616 Jessica Drew says in the 'Spider-Women' event "Go to Reed Richards" involving Multiverse travel. Earth-65 Reed (and kindergarten age kid) made a Multiverse teleporter from Legos and also helped in All New Wolverine Annual l that Gwen was in. So one was busted...just use the 100 more ways and the 100 other new devices that can be made by 'super genius' with science or magic mumbo jumbo.

    In the Web Warriors that dang web was tangled, on fire, breaking, ect. They been traped then untraped in the Mutiverse in the same issue. Traveling in the Multiverse isn't that big of a deal anymore or hard or lack possibilities.

  4. #1834
    Incredible Member AngelJD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spidergwen View Post
    I'm so tired of this argument that Gwen deserved to die and should stay dead, we get it. There's a big fat, gigantic chance E616 Gwen is never coming back, we SUPER get it, it's rehashed every single day.

    My original point, Peter already knows how to catch someone safely, and it turned into a metathesis on how much the writers hate Gwen, and how its their "right" to be misogynistic and backwards, and it's my right to critique their crappy tactics. These writers are so incompetent, it's literally ONE issue before they kill Gwen off the same way Peter caught this rando. They pulled this during their clone saga, Peter screams in Gwen clones face she died MONTHS ago, and in the literal next issue the Gwen clone comments she's been dead for two years.

    Writers make mistakes, they can't even recall what they did one issue before. Talk about lazy.
    I don't feel ANY character has a 'right' or deserves to die and stay dead. Killing a character removes possibilities for other writers (though strangely also a chance for even new one's with some imagination by writers not just for others 'influenced' by a death as we seen writer do in trying to push a character in a direction like how now Flash dieing pushed MJ to try to make things work with Peter agian, the Uncle Ben death to Peter, Captain Stacy to Gwen I feel, Gwen to MJ, ect). Both death and resurrection needs to be carefully planned and taken with realistic level of seriousness (not the same old 'I got better' routine) I feel.

    Just as there is a chance V1 Gwen 616 might never come back to life (though agian imagination and comics and magic and whatnot even in death you might be used as a character like as a ghost literary like MJ got zapped by magic and can see and talk to dead people or guardian spirit and Gwen is one of them ect it's comics crazy happens all the time) there is also a chance in the future she might. A writer might have inspirations and ideas and desires. Something involving 616 Gwen not just restoration/resurrection but other characters and other plots and developments with Gwen playing a role big and small. If the writer truly feels passion and belief in the work they make and plans things out for long term (with plan Bs short term due to cancellations or unexpected stuff always popping up also that can throw a wrench in plans of writers). But careful planning and considerations must be taken

    Due to how long she has been died many readers have been set into a intuitionzation thinking that had to be for all Gwen Stacys in the Multiverse till a few writers of Multiverse Gwen's and most of all Earth-65 Gwen writers shock the mold. With 616 Gwen being dead for so long readers have been set into a habit into thinking that is how it always going to be. When a habit breaks or something new pops in that conflicts with a comfort level set by habit thinking some react negatively just on a matter of change vs quality. So if 616 V1 Gwen ever did return it will have to be written in a award winning way plus have at least 5 good stories involving Gwen ready to also warrant her return and acceptance in time (love interest or not love interest doesn't matter but Quality and character developments and storytelling are king) due to how long she has died and other feel that is how it will be forever. It difficult but for a writer who believes in a story they worked hard and put in the time for just because it's tough doesn't mean it's not worth fighting for.

    So will I see a resurrection of 616 V1 Gwen? Maybe not but nothing is locked in stone. I might die years from now and 50 years after my death 616 V1 Gwen is back. I can't say what the future holds nor can writers foresee 50 years into the future and what might come and how they might help influence in some form.

  5. #1835
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spidergwen View Post
    I just realized RCO has Issue #121 on there, so I finally read it and decided to hunt down Peter and Gwen's last conversation in issue #120 and it's painful. Just a few pages after their last conversation, Peter throws someone off a rooftop, and catches him and webbing each of his limbs.

    I get that the writers hated Gwen, but like.. maybe be less cocky about killing her off and aim for something more plausible and then rubbing it in our faces that Peter knows how to catch people properly.
    Attachment 75521
    I think it's different when Peter deliberately sets up an opportunity to web someone up, where he's in control of what's going on and knows what he's going to do, versus what happened with Gwen where it was all in the heat of the moment.

  6. #1836
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it's different when Peter deliberately sets up an opportunity to web someone up, where he's in control of what's going on and knows what he's going to do, versus what happened with Gwen where it was all in the heat of the moment.
    That web snapping thing is just Conway's dark joke. He said that in story the goblin killed Gwen but he wanted to trick readers by implying that Peter snapped her neck in incompetence. Basically the goblin killed Gwen and Peter is responsible for lying to her. But the whole neck snapping thing was never intended to be taken seriously. It was added in when the art came and not in tgd script.

    Conway also put his own opinions about Gwen in Goblin's mouth. Goblin calls Gwen an insignificant female who never did more than occupy space. So basically Conway is the goblin and Peter is the audience

  7. #1837
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    People I think we may have unintentionally stumbled upon the next OMD (in regards to fan passion on both sides of the argument and thread ability to devolve into unpleasantness as well as go off track) - "Should 616 Gwen Stacy Stay Dead?"
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  8. #1838
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spidergwen View Post
    I'm so tired of this argument that Gwen deserved to die and should stay dead, we get it. There's a big fat, gigantic chance E616 Gwen is never coming back, we SUPER get it, it's rehashed every single day.

    My original point, Peter already knows how to catch someone safely, and it turned into a metathesis on how much the writers hate Gwen, and how its their "right" to be misogynistic and backwards, and it's my right to critique their crappy tactics. These writers are so incompetent, it's literally ONE issue before they kill Gwen off the same way Peter caught this rando. They pulled this during their clone saga, Peter screams in Gwen clones face she died MONTHS ago, and in the literal next issue the Gwen clone comments she's been dead for two years.

    Writers make mistakes, they can't even recall what they did one issue before. Talk about lazy.
    (Why does everyone forget Peter was sick as hell in that story?)

  9. #1839
    Astonishing Member Gambit, King of Thieves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    People I think we may have unintentionally stumbled upon the next OMD (in regards to fan passion on both sides of the argument and thread ability to devolve into unpleasantness as well as go off track) - "Should 616 Gwen Stacy Stay Dead?"
    What’s OMD?
    Cyclops was SO DAMN RIGHT, BABY
    Pull list: X-23, Mr. & Mrs. X, Extermination, Spider-Gwen: Ghost Spider, Uncanny X-Men
    Have been informed that the Black Swans are "only seeking female members, but thank you very much for your time"

  10. #1840
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambit, King of Thieves View Post
    What’s OMD?
    Um, yeah, er, how do I explain this? Okay, when two people love each other very much they get married years later they make a deal with the devil, or a stand-in, to save one of their elderly aunts from the adverse effects of a gunshot wound at the cost of their marriage. There, I think I did a good job, ah, maybe....

    PS In all seriousness OMD stands for One More Day.
    Last edited by Celgress; 12-30-2018 at 04:53 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  11. #1841
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Conceptually, OMD and TNGSD serve the same basic purpose of ending the relationship between Peter and his long time love interest. It's just... ah... I don't think we'll ever see any Spider-Man project (like the films or video games) build up to OMD.

  12. #1842
    Astonishing Member Gambit, King of Thieves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Um, yeah, er, how do I explain this? Okay, when two people love each other very much they get married years later they make a deal with the devil, or a stand-in, to save one of their elderly aunts from the adverse effects of a gunshot wound at the cost of their marriage. There, I think I did a good job, ah, maybe....

    PS In all seriousness OMD stands for One More Day.
    I realized what it was after I asked but was at work so couldn’t edit.
    Cyclops was SO DAMN RIGHT, BABY
    Pull list: X-23, Mr. & Mrs. X, Extermination, Spider-Gwen: Ghost Spider, Uncanny X-Men
    Have been informed that the Black Swans are "only seeking female members, but thank you very much for your time"

  13. #1843
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambit, King of Thieves View Post
    I realized what it was after I asked but was at work so couldn’t edit.
    Yeah, I figured you either did or were joking thus my "explanation".
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  14. #1844
    Amazing Member spidergwen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That web snapping thing is just Conway's dark joke. He said that in story the goblin killed Gwen but he wanted to trick readers by implying that Peter snapped her neck in incompetence. Basically the goblin killed Gwen and Peter is responsible for lying to her. But the whole neck snapping thing was never intended to be taken seriously. It was added in when the art came and not in tgd script.

    Conway also put his own opinions about Gwen in Goblin's mouth. Goblin calls Gwen an insignificant female who never did more than occupy space. So basically Conway is the goblin and Peter is the audience
    Puke. My God, kill her if you must, but adding such a misogynistic remark to the actual story was so unneccessary of him. The writers are awful tbh, all they've done is torture Peter, Gwen and MJ. Literally, at this point, Peter may be better off dead where Marvel can't touch him anymore. ACTUAL dead, not fake ass dead 99.9% of comic book characters manage to pull off.
    "Sins Past" was deliberate character assassination (the writers admitted to pulling it out of thin air) and the OG Gwen was nothing but fiercely loyal to Peter Parker and it got her killed.

  15. #1845
    Amazing Member spidergwen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it's different when Peter deliberately sets up an opportunity to web someone up, where he's in control of what's going on and knows what he's going to do, versus what happened with Gwen where it was all in the heat of the moment.
    I wish that were the case. I stumbled onto this on RCO last night, issue #73. And I've only been reading the ones with Gwen on it, but I've caught two separate instances of Peter catching someone properly before Gwen's death.
    asm 73 2.jpg

    EDIT: how does everyone else upload their stuff in HD? -_-
    Last edited by spidergwen; 12-31-2018 at 10:06 PM.
    "Sins Past" was deliberate character assassination (the writers admitted to pulling it out of thin air) and the OG Gwen was nothing but fiercely loyal to Peter Parker and it got her killed.

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