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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Some Sins Past jokes have been removed. It doesn't seem to fit the new CBR.
    What? I liked her in Sin's Past.

  2. #62
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    Y'know, I keep thinking it would have been better if Gwen's one night stand had been with Harry instead of Norman...Harry could have driven round the bend more organicly by finding out Gwen had his kids and didnt want anything to do with him because he was pilled out of his head

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member John Ossie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    It's a flashback issue.
    So I assumed right then? That you did see it.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post

    As we know, nothing is impossible when it comes to comics. Nobody ever thought they would ever see Bucky alive in comics again. Who do you think could handle bringing her back and how do you think it could happen?
    See did come back as a clone created by Prof. Warren. She's still out there somewhere....I believe. I do not recognize The High Evolutionary explanation of the Gwen "clone". But if a Spidey clone that is dropped down a smoke stack can return....so can the real Gwen Stacy. Is it too late to bring her back?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron Samurai View Post
    Yes, that's what I was saying. The baggage would definitely build over years and years of stories, we would be inside Peter's head the whole way as he juggled with the lure of responsibility for Gwen and her children's welfare, we could get reactions from Aunt May, would she approve of Peter being a young stepfather? Would there be a story where Peter and Gwen would have to deal with the children's acclerated growth? It would easily have filled up the last seven years alone. If the original plan for OMD had gone ahead, we would have probably have seen Peter and Gwen reunited in accordance with the movie coming out. Just shows how many missed oppertunities have come out of this stubborn desire to maintain old continuity that Marvel are becoming increasingly fickle with anyway.
    I wholeheartedly agree, and after OMD, the idea of maintaining continuity is ridiculous. Like I said before, they could do another OMD type story, but this time with a benevolent superbeing and write it any way they wanted to. They could say that Sins Past never happened, and Gwen went to England simply to join her Aunt and Uncle with no pregnancy just like it was written in ASM #94, except she never came back thus never dying. Although I'd like to see the Clone Saga erased, it could still be retconned so that there was a clone of Gwen, but she was still in England. Many of the same storylines could remain since Gwen is out of the picture and then she decides to come back from England in the present day and is reunited with Peter. There's still all kinds of drama that could take place about why she left, why he didn't seem to want to stop her, blah, blah. The advantage is no major retcon (at least no more than there was with OMD) and Gwen and Peter can rekindle their romance. OMD pretty much busted the cherry on major retcons, and after 40+ years and all kinds of crazy things that have happened, Gwen's death is no more sacred that Peter and MJ's marriage.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by usually View Post
    See did come back as a clone created by Prof. Warren. She's still out there somewhere....I believe. I do not recognize The High Evolutionary explanation of the Gwen "clone". But if a Spidey clone that is dropped down a smoke stack can return....so can the real Gwen Stacy. Is it too late to bring her back?
    The High Evolutionary explanation was "invalidated" later in the clone saga. Besides, that whole High Evolutionary story should be retconned out of existence anyway. It was such a bad story!

    As for bringing back Gwen, all it takes is for the "powers that be" to decide to bring her back and then writing a story. Nothing more. After all the other resurrections that have taken place over the years, bring back Gwen would be simple. It is NEVER too late to bring Gwen back!

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron Samurai View Post
    Y'know, I keep thinking it would have been better if Gwen's one night stand had been with Harry instead of Norman...Harry could have driven round the bend more organicly by finding out Gwen had his kids and didnt want anything to do with him because he was pilled out of his head
    That was MJ's excuse for breaking up with Harry. Not the kids, of course, but the pills. One glitch in that concept is that the kids are superpowered because of the Goblin formula and Harry hadn't been using the formula at that time, but what the hell, THAT can always be retconned!!

  8. #68
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    Well guys,
    I'm headin' out tonight. Have a good one and I'll talk to y'all later.

    Cheers,
    dddaaavvv

  9. #69
    Ultimate Member juan678's Avatar
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    Gwen & MJ with John Romita Sr.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan678 View Post

    Gwen & MJ with John Romita Sr.
    J.R. Sr is my favorite Spidey artist. Through his romance comic background he was able to augment the Gwen/Peter romance with his ability to draw emotion into characters faces. He drew Gwen in such a beautiful way.

    He also drew characters with the right amount of realistic proportion. Many of the newer artists don't appeal to me because they draw the characters in a distorted fashion. Their art is IMHO TOO cartoony and diminishes the story. Sure, if the story is a humorous one these artists would be great. It would enhance the comedic nature of the story. But for emotional drama, Romita Sr is IMHO one of the greats!

  11. #71
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    I appreciate Gwen, but I feel that her importance to the franchise is more in how she died than how she lived.

    I understand the desire to bring Gwen back. But in my personal opinion, she didn't really have a strong personality to begin with. She was initially a cold fish, then warmed up to be more of a party girl, then softened to become someone who would weep at the drop of a hat. She never really had a set personality for her character, evolving more to what the situation required her to be, rather than her character dictating the situation.

    In addition, in most of the arguments to bring her back, it seems that there is a desire to alter character to the point of making her an entirely new person altogether, which essentially defeats the purpose of bringing her back in the first place. Or Gwen is to serve a role as a scientist or police contact for Spider-Man, to aid him in his crime fighting. This seems to be contradictory to what is said to be a key aspect of Spider-Man, is that he is a loner and not someone to rely on others, or it would make things too easy for him. There is also the fact that these are things that Peter could easily do himself. He has never needed scientific help in the past as Spider-Man, relying on his own brains to resolve a crisis. And he has had police contacts in the past, so having an "in" on the force with Gwen is not really necessary. As others have argued, Spider-Man is bought for Spider-Man, not Mr. and Mrs. Spider-Man, and I don't see how making Gwen a more equal crime fighting partner would not play into that notion as well, perhaps even more so.

    I can sympathize that it seems like a good philosophy or idea to have Gwen help out Peter in his time as Spider-Man. However, I think it would be a case of something sounding better in theory than it does in practice. It sounds like a good idea, but there really isn't much of a story there. Not one that many readers could predict it's resolution to. That sort of setup seems more likely to lead to becoming formulaic rather than something that would truly inject a new sense of drama into the book. It doesn't increase conflict or drama, it removes it. There is no overall arc or story to that development, meaning it faces a good chance of becoming forgotten about. And there is nothing about that development that couldn't be handled by Spider-Man himself, without any assistance.

    So, overall, I think that Gwen's death is the thing that truly makes her a key component in the Spider-Man franchise. But I don't see how bringing her back would actually benefit the book.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMacQuarrie1 View Post
    I appreciate Gwen, but I feel that her importance to the franchise is more in how she died than how she lived.
    Many people feel that same way, Robert, but IMHO except for shaking up the comic book industry, hers was a senseless death in the Spider-man franchise. I suspect the writers painted themselves into a corner and didn't know what to do with her so the killed her off rather than allow the almost inevitable course of events of her and Peter getting married too young, and hindering the storyline potential. Sadly, this was probably necessary at that time, it still doesn't change the fact that a great romantic story was cut short before it had a chance to be played out. I can personally attest to having a person come along at a crucial point and greatly influencing my life. I see Peter and Gwen's as a symbiotic relationship. Gwen was conceited and was used to having guys chase her. Peter (and the circumstances he was faced with) didn't do that. This taught Gwen some humility and also gave Peter some social confidence. It made them both better people, and I see the potential for them to grow even more if she is brought back.

    I understand the desire to bring Gwen back. But in my personal opinion, she didn't really have a strong personality to begin with. She was initially a cold fish, then warmed up to be more of a party girl, then softened to become someone who would weep at the drop of a hat. She never really had a set personality for her character, evolving more to what the situation required her to be, rather than her character dictating the situation.
    I agree she didn't have a strong personality in the last, say, 20 issues before she died, but before that she did have personality. That was the writers doing. They could have done so much more with her, and her "evolution" was again the WRITERS adapting her to the situation, rather than her character dictating the situation. However it should be noted that the were several occasions where she did have a strong influence on the story and Peter. She had a strong ethical compass and admired bravery and intuitively knew that Peter had many of the same qualities that she admired in her father. There were also several occasions where she and Peter had arguments and she did put him in his place! The writers hinted at her potential back then and I would like to see that side of her brought out in her resurrection!

    In addition, in most of the arguments to bring her back, it seems that there is a desire to alter character to the point of making her an entirely new person altogether, which essentially defeats the purpose of bringing her back in the first place. Or Gwen is to serve a role as a scientist or police contact for Spider-Man, to aid him in his crime fighting. This seems to be contradictory to what is said to be a key aspect of Spider-Man, is that he is a loner and not someone to rely on others, or it would make things too easy for him. There is also the fact that these are things that Peter could easily do himself. He has never needed scientific help in the past as Spider-Man, relying on his own brains to resolve a crisis. And he has had police contacts in the past, so having an "in" on the force with Gwen is not really necessary. As others have argued, Spider-Man is bought for Spider-Man, not Mr. and Mrs. Spider-Man, and I don't see how making Gwen a more equal crime fighting partner would not play into that notion as well, perhaps even more so.
    My personal desire is to bring her back but not alter her character but add some foundation, depth and dimension, and accentuate the passion and the spirit that the writers touched upon back then. Nothing any different than they did to MJ. Before #122 MJ was a shallow, one dimensional, good time, party girl who cared nothing about people, and was just looking for fun (and not very likeable IMHO). When Harry had his drug problem, she abandoned him and went on to party more. AFTER #121 the writers gave her some substance and dimension and explained why she was the fun loving but heartless part girl she was. Again the writers evolved MJ to the situation required of HER. That is all I want them to do with Gwen. Enhance her character the same way they did to MJ

    I can sympathize that it seems like a good philosophy or idea to have Gwen help out Peter in his time as Spider-Man. However, I think it would be a case of something sounding better in theory than it does in practice. It sounds like a good idea, but there really isn't much of a story there. Not one that many readers could predict it's resolution to. That sort of setup seems more likely to lead to becoming formulaic rather than something that would truly inject a new sense of drama into the book. It doesn't increase conflict or drama, it removes it. There is no overall arc or story to that development, meaning it faces a good chance of becoming forgotten about. And there is nothing about that development that couldn't be handled by Spider-Man himself, without any assistance.
    The exact same argument can be made about Peter and MJ getting married and yet the writers made that work for twenty years! If the writers could do THAT then the same thing could be done with Peter and Gwen. It's not a matter of theory being put into practice. Their experiment worked with MJ and it can work with Gwen. If there were twenty years (in fact THIRTY years given all the time leading up to the marriage) of story potential with MJ, then there can at least be that much with Gwen. As for drama, story development, etc. that is entirely up to the creative staff. If the creative director says "bring Gwen back and make it work" it CAN be done. If they could do it with MJ they can just as easily do it with Gwen. Considering all the outlandish things that have been done in comic books and specifically in the Spidey franchise ANYTHING is possible!

    So, overall, I think that Gwen's death is the thing that truly makes her a key component in the Spider-Man franchise. But I don't see how bringing her back would actually benefit the book.
    My friend, you are entitled to your opinion, but I too am entitled to mine. Would bringing back Gwen benefit the book? That's as intangible a question as would bringing back Aunt May (THREE f*****g times!!!), Harry Osborn, Norman Osborn, having Peter marry MJ, etc. It COULD benefit the book if the writers MAKE it benefit the book.

    Robert, we are obviously of different schools of thought on this subject. I am for bringing Gwen back, and you are against it. We are never going to come to a consensus on this and all we will succeed in doing is wasting time formulating arguments to support our opinions, but that's all they are is opinions. My core reason for wanting to bring Gwen back is for Peter and Gwen to have the relationship they were supposed to have if not for her death. I want to see that happy ending. It's my ship. It's important to me. Maybe you're an MJ fan. Maybe you would like to see THEM reunited. That's fine. I don't know, but whatever your motivation, try and find a constructive outlet. Instead of being negative and unsupportive on this thread, start your OWN thread that supports YOUR point of view and be positive and supportive on THAT thread. You get to express yourself and engage in amicable chat with others of a similar point of view, and we can avoid incurring the wrath of our moderator overlords! (Just kidding guys! ) Whaddaya think?

  13. #73
    Mighty Member Aruran.'s Avatar
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    My honest opinion on Gwen, is that she's better off dead. The old saying goes
    "You don't know what you have till it's gone".

    Peter's relationship with Gwen only matters cause she died, just like his relationship with MJ matters because it was taken away from him. If Peter and Gwen had broken up in 1970s and she was written off, I doubt you have as many people clamouring for her to come back. Other than Captain Stacy's death, there is no defining moment in their relationship than her death.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aruran. View Post
    My honest opinion on Gwen, is that she's better off dead. The old saying goes
    "You don't know what you have till it's gone".
    But what about all the other people who were killed off only to be brought back? Also,as I said before, if they had just left her dead instead of resurrecting her in so many different incarnations in other universes and clones, etc. They've been milking her death for 40+ years in not only comics, but movies, and cartoons. She's never been gone so how is one supposed to know what they don't have?

    Peter's relationship with Gwen only matters cause she died, just like his relationship with MJ matters because it was taken away from him. If Peter and Gwen had broken up in 1970s and she was written off, I doubt you have as many people clamouring for her to come back. Other than Captain Stacy's death, there is no defining moment in their relationship than her death.
    I have to disagree with you. Gwen was instrumental in transforming Peter into a more socially confident person instead of the geeky bookworm he was. As for his relationship with MJ, that lasted 30+ years. That is a whole era of Spider-man's life. To say that 30 years ONLY matters because they were broken up, is simply incorrect. As for her being just written off and people dropping it, maybe, but MJ refused Peter's marriage proposal and disappeared only to pop up again and again and finally end up getting married! The SAME kind of scenario could have happened with Gwen. She could have stayed in England and come back some years later, had an affair with Peter, while he was married to MJ, broken up their marriage (just imagine THAT storyline for OMD!!! Tell me THAT wouldn't have sold a crapload of comics!!!) and so on and so on. All kinds of "coulda's" that would have been juicy stories! Sorry, but IMHO after everything that's happened, the retcons, the resurrections of other characters, the alternate realities where she was unnecessarily brought in, the cartoons and movies where her name was used as nothing more than enticement, Her death is no longer a defining moment. It's just a story that has been exploited to death. Pun intended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aruran. View Post
    My honest opinion on Gwen, is that she's better off dead. The old saying goes
    "You don't know what you have till it's gone".

    Peter's relationship with Gwen only matters cause she died, just like his relationship with MJ matters because it was taken away from him. If Peter and Gwen had broken up in 1970s and she was written off, I doubt you have as many people clamouring for her to come back. Other than Captain Stacy's death, there is no defining moment in their relationship than her death.
    I agree.

    I think there is an impression that if Gwen had survived, she'd get a lot of character development and have more prominence. But Peter has had a lot of girlfriends throughout the mythos, and most of them have pretty much drifted into the background. I'd argue that if Betty Brant- his very first love interest- didn't get any greater prominence in the franchise, Gwen isn't likely to have fared any better had she just broken up with Peter. She'd just be another ex, like Betty Brant, Deb Whitman, or even Joy Mercado. Really, the only unique thing that Gwen truly did was to perish, which radically changed the entire landscape of comics.

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