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  1. #76

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    I didn't like the current movie's choice regarding Gwen. I don't respect it. The films had a chance to go in an entirely new direction involving the character, and now...

  2. #77
    Mighty Member Aruran.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dddaaavvv View Post
    But what about all the other people who were killed off only to be brought back? Also,as I said before, if they had just left her dead instead of resurrecting her in so many different incarnations in other universes and clones, etc. They've been milking her death for 40+ years in not only comics, but movies, and cartoons. She's never been gone so how is one supposed to know what they don't have?
    Well first off show me a non-super powered or normal character that was brought back to life and didn't change. And the fact is that Peter failed to save someone close to him, which is something he will carry for the rest of his life.

    I have to disagree with you. Gwen was instrumental in transforming Peter into a more socially confident person instead of the geeky bookworm he was. As for his relationship with MJ, that lasted 30+ years. That is a whole era of Spider-man's life. To say that 30 years ONLY matters because they were broken up, is simply incorrect. As for her being just written off and people dropping it, maybe, but MJ refused Peter's marriage proposal and disappeared only to pop up again and again and finally end up getting married! The SAME kind of scenario could have happened with Gwen. She could have stayed in England and come back some years later, had an affair with Peter, while he was married to MJ, broken up their marriage (just imagine THAT storyline for OMD!!! Tell me THAT wouldn't have sold a crapload of comics!!!) and so on and so on. All kinds of "coulda's" that would have been juicy stories! Sorry, but IMHO after everything that's happened, the retcons, the resurrections of other characters, the alternate realities where she was unnecessarily brought in, the cartoons and movies where her name was used as nothing more than enticement, Her death is no longer a defining moment. It's just a story that has been exploited to death. Pun intended.
    Yeah it wasn't like the most popular girl in at his school and his boss's secretary were hitting on him.

    But seriously, if Gwen had never died, and instead she went off to London and Peter starting dating MJ, who can honestly say that Gwen would've came back.

    I get that a lot of people hold Peter and Gwen's relationship very high, but IMHO that only happened since Gwen died. Her death is a defining moment in Peter's life, cause she is one of few people Peter failed in life. Her death really is the end of Peter's youth, cause it forces him to accept the realties and responsibilities of being an adult.

    She could have stayed in England and come back some years later, had an affair with Peter, while he was married to MJ, broken up their marriage (just imagine THAT storyline for OMD!!! Tell me THAT wouldn't have sold a crapload of comics!!!) and so on and so on.
    I wonder if that's what Marvel was thinking when they were making Sins Past.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aruran. View Post
    Well first off show me a non-super powered or normal character that was brought back to life and didn't change. And the fact is that Peter failed to save someone close to him, which is something he will carry for the rest of his life.
    Gwen doesn't necessarily have to be brought back from the dead. She could return in a retcon or reboot or whatever. As for a character that returned unchanged, what about Aunt May? (Not the best example, just bein' a bit of a smarta$$! )

    An interesting point was brought up in the "Comic Book Legends Revealed: The Night Gwen Stacy Died" thread. Peter was sick on that occasion and that affected his performance. If he had not been sick, the outcome that night could have been entirely different. But Peter does like to beat himself up!

    Yeah it wasn't like the most popular girl in at his school and his boss's secretary were hitting on him.
    Good point! Still nothing ever developed with Liz but I will give you Betty as his first love, she certainly had SOME effect on his confidence.


    But seriously, if Gwen had never died, and instead she went off to London and Peter starting dating MJ, who can honestly say that Gwen would've came back.
    No one can say she would've come back, but then again the same could be said about Liz and Betty. It's all up to the writers.

    I get that a lot of people hold Peter and Gwen's relationship very high, but IMHO that only happened since Gwen died. Her death is a defining moment in Peter's life, cause she is one of few people Peter failed in life. Her death really is the end of Peter's youth, cause it forces him to accept the realties and responsibilities of being an adult.
    Wouldn't Aunt May dying under the same circumstances have had a similar effect? He would have failed her similarly, and wouldn't losing a parental figure cause him to end his youth as well?


    I wonder if that's what Marvel was thinking when they were making Sins Past.
    My guess is that 1. They wanted to exploit the sensationalism of Gwen's death AGAIN to sell comics, and 2. They wanted to tarnish Gwen's image because she was TOO perfect. I don't mean that to sound like she is on some kind of pedestal, it's just that EVERYONE in comics was pure and innocent in the 60's so this was an attempt to modernize her so that the other characters wouldn't appear so "impure" in comparison. Comparing 60's Gwen to 2000's MJ would make MJ look like a real skank, but it's simply a change in values between the 60's and now, and I think they were trying to update Gwen's moral image for this reason.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    I didn't like the current movie's choice regarding Gwen. I don't respect it. The films had a chance to go in an entirely new direction involving the character, and now...
    Agreed. Instead of sticking to the death of Gwen storyline from the past, while changing almost everything ELSE from Spider-man's history, they really could have gone in a different direction. Oh well...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMacQuarrie1 View Post
    I agree.

    I think there is an impression that if Gwen had survived, she'd get a lot of character development and have more prominence. But Peter has had a lot of girlfriends throughout the mythos, and most of them have pretty much drifted into the background. I'd argue that if Betty Brant- his very first love interest- didn't get any greater prominence in the franchise, Gwen isn't likely to have fared any better had she just broken up with Peter. She'd just be another ex, like Betty Brant, Deb Whitman, or even Joy Mercado. Really, the only unique thing that Gwen truly did was to perish, which radically changed the entire landscape of comics.
    Another way of looking at it is that Gwen's death opened the door to new possibilities that were never explored extensively before. It can be suggested that Capt. Stacy's death opened the door to Gwen's death as well, and once that sacred line was crossed everything was fair game. The Bronze Age broke down scores of once sacred barriers which was necessary because stories in comics were starting to stagnate. However, from my point of view, after so many barriers were broken down (and so often) the significance of Gwen's death was severely diminished and if everyone ELSE can come back from the dead, why not Gwen?

  6. #81
    Mighty Member Aruran.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dddaaavvv View Post
    Another way of looking at it is that Gwen's death opened the door to new possibilities that were never explored extensively before. It can be suggested that Capt. Stacy's death opened the door to Gwen's death as well, and once that sacred line was crossed everything was fair game. The Bronze Age broke down scores of once sacred barriers which was necessary because stories in comics were starting to stagnate. However, from my point of view, after so many barriers were broken down (and so often) the significance of Gwen's death was severely diminished and if everyone ELSE can come back from the dead, why not Gwen?
    Maybe to you Gwen's death seems diminished, but it really isn't.
    It's a scar Peter carries with him for the rest of his life, cause he wasn't good enough to save. It's really his biggest mistake in life, as he should've lived up to "Great Power, Great Responsibility". If Gwen comes back, Peter won't become a better character or person. It's cause of her death he becomes better as way to make that it will never happen again to another person.

    Look at it like this, Peter really isn't responsible for Uncle Ben's death, cause the robber choose to end Ben life. But Peter is responsible for Gwen, cause he put her danger, and he couldn't save her when it mattered. Peter put Uncle Ben in danger, but he didn't shoot him. Peter did kill Gwen though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dddaaavvv View Post
    Another way of looking at it is that Gwen's death opened the door to new possibilities that were never explored extensively before. It can be suggested that Capt. Stacy's death opened the door to Gwen's death as well, and once that sacred line was crossed everything was fair game. The Bronze Age broke down scores of once sacred barriers which was necessary because stories in comics were starting to stagnate. However, from my point of view, after so many barriers were broken down (and so often) the significance of Gwen's death was severely diminished and if everyone ELSE can come back from the dead, why not Gwen?
    Gwen's death was on a far different level than the death's of Captain Stacy or Bennett Brant. These people weren't as close to Peter as Gwen was.

    In comics, female love interests were "safe." Supporting characters like Captain Stacy were still fair game. But when Gwen died, this was something that had never been done before, and truly changed the stakes in the series. Captain Stacy's death didn't really shake the series up all that much. All it did was serve as another obstacle to Peter getting closer to Gwen, who she blamed for her father's death. Very similar to Bennett Brant's death and Peter's relationship with Betty. With Gwen's death, this not only has shaken Peter to this day and affected the entire franchise (recently seen in the latest Spider-Man film), but it also led to the death of the Green Goblin, led to Harry becoming a villain on his own, led to the creation of the Hobgoblin, and opened the door for Peter to date characters like MJ and the Black Cat who have had a major impact on the franchise.

    Gwen's death has hardly been diminished. In fact, it's still as important today as it was back in 1973.

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    Hey new member long time Comicbook reader and I have to say Spider-man is my favorite.

    Due to the movie I've been going back and re-reading a lot of the Gwen stuff. Clearly had she not been there Peter Parker would not have become the person he did become and has probably made us love him as much as we do.

    I have to admit I am a little bit amazed by the fact that as many re-boots of the Spiderverse that they have done over the years that no one has ever tried to bring the real Gwen back at some point. There are lots of reasons we could come up with and they are valid on some level but I have a feeling that if someone felt like they could get the story write, which it would have to be, they would try because as much as some of us would hate the idea it would make a lot of money for Marvel at least short term.

    I'll also say from the time they committed to the marriage of Mary-Jane and Peter Parker till it ended they couldn't really bring back the real Gwen even if they wanted too because if they had no matter what you did some how Peter was going to end up looking like a jerk by either not being with Gwen or dumping his wife for Gwen. I do think now that they have ended the marriage (again a whole other argument on if they should have done that or not that I am sure has happened many times over here) that it does open the door a little more to try to bring back Gwen if some writer has the right story and is brave enough to try it. I am sure at some point someone probably will try it. I'll reserve my judgment till I see how the story is done.

    Personally as much as I like Gwen and I am sure they could come up with a good story to bring her back I am good with her being dead but I am also more of a Mary Jane fan than Gwen Stacy but that might have something to do with the fact I've grown up with Peter and Mary Jane my whole life as Gwen was dead before I was born and it wasn't till I was a young teenager that I even read some of the Gwen stuff for the first time.

    Also, the idea of bringing her back would destroy one of Peter Parker's greatest failures. With that said, in some ways she's re-telling the same story as Uncle Ben. As long as one or the other stays dead (and Ben needs to stay dead no matter what IMO) I think you can still have that moral grounding for Peter that both their deaths provide regardless of if the other was brought back to life.

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    Captain Stacy's death served as a warning to Peter that people could really die due to his double life. Its a warning he failed to heed for very long. Once Gwen calmed down and Peter and her were more stable again, thats when his actions led to her death. And between the two of them, its been hammered home to him that he needs to be really, really careful about his secret identity and protecting those he loves. Prior to that he was more concerned over protecting himself from discovery because of the shock it would cause his Aunt May and Gwen. Now suddenly he realized there was alot more at stake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron Samurai View Post
    I've never been a fan of 616 Gwen and always preferreed MJ to her. Stories like "Sins Past" have played a large part in me never wanting to see her show up. I'm sorry, but if she really loved Peter as much as fans claim, she wouldnt have slept with Norman Osborn under any circumstances.

    Every other Gwen on the other hand has been nothing short of magnificent. Ultimate Gwen reminds me of some of my old gal pals who looked after me in school.
    I don't hold the sins past story line against her because of something I read about the guy who wrote the story pretty much wishing he could go back and un-do it and even said he felt like in his mind One More Day did undo it (even though the brother has since shown up). I agree with you though it clearly does not fit the Gwen character that had been told up to that point. Heck they go out of their way to make the point that she never slept with Peter I have a hard time thinking she would have slept with Norman. I chalk that story up to being a bad story idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aruran. View Post
    Maybe to you Gwen's death seems diminished, but it really isn't.
    It's a scar Peter carries with him for the rest of his life, cause he wasn't good enough to save. It's really his biggest mistake in life, as he should've lived up to "Great Power, Great Responsibility". If Gwen comes back, Peter won't become a better character or person. It's cause of her death he becomes better as way to make that it will never happen again to another person.

    Look at it like this, Peter really isn't responsible for Uncle Ben's death, cause the robber choose to end Ben life. But Peter is responsible for Gwen, cause he put her danger, and he couldn't save her when it mattered. Peter put Uncle Ben in danger, but he didn't shoot him. Peter did kill Gwen though.
    I guess I shouldn't have worded my posting in the form of a question! Let me rephrase it. If everyone ELSE can come back from the dead then Gwen can too.

    Aruran, you are entitled to your opinion, but we will just have agree to disagree.

  12. #87
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    Gwen won't come back. There's just no reason. Her death was the perfect story and to bring her back would serve no purpose, especially in this postOMD storyline where Peter can't settle down with her. Untold tales are fine, but it would have to be a story better than her death to bring her back - and that's pretty much impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMacQuarrie1 View Post
    Gwen's death was on a far different level than the death's of Captain Stacy or Bennett Brant. These people weren't as close to Peter as Gwen was.

    In comics, female love interests were "safe." Supporting characters like Captain Stacy were still fair game. But when Gwen died, this was something that had never been done before, and truly changed the stakes in the series. Captain Stacy's death didn't really shake the series up all that much. All it did was serve as another obstacle to Peter getting closer to Gwen, who she blamed for her father's death. Very similar to Bennett Brant's death and Peter's relationship with Betty. With Gwen's death, this not only has shaken Peter to this day and affected the entire franchise (recently seen in the latest Spider-Man film), but it also led to the death of the Green Goblin, led to Harry becoming a villain on his own, led to the creation of the Hobgoblin, and opened the door for Peter to date characters like MJ and the Black Cat who have had a major impact on the franchise.

    Gwen's death has hardly been diminished. In fact, it's still as important today as it was back in 1973.
    We also will just have to agree to disagree. You may not see Gwen's death as being diminished but after Clone Saga, the return of Norman Osborn as well as scores of either bad or bizarre storylines I do. I want to see her and Peter have the relationship they should have had if she hadn't died. That's just my point of view whether you agree or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RD! View Post
    Gwen won't come back. There's just no reason. Her death was the perfect story and to bring her back would serve no purpose, especially in this postOMD storyline where Peter can't settle down with her. Untold tales are fine, but it would have to be a story better than her death to bring her back - and that's pretty much impossible.
    I think you could bring her back but I 100% agree on the idea that the story has to be right and you are 100% right coming up with a story that was better than her death is going to be near impossible which is probably part of the reason they have never tried it.

    The other big reason I think was the Mary Jane and Peter marriage. Even if you had the greatest story in the world for her return while they were married you couldn't bring her back and not end up making Peter look like a jerk to either Mary Jane or Gwen. Also, they didn't need her Peter had Mary Jane as his love interest. Now that they have destroyed that I would rather read about Peter and Gwen again than Peter and Anna or Carlie or whoever else they come up with as an idea to keep to Peter away from Mary Jane.

    My problem would be while the stuff in the middle would probably be good I don't think the story with her return would be good enough to bring her back and frankly it would all lead towards her dying again at some point in the future when they are ready for Peter and Mary Jane to get back together (which will happen at some point.) In Spider-man's world it's meant that Peter and Mary Jane will end up together and Gwen Stacy will die. That's just how it is. So I just don't think the stuff in the middle would be worth bringing her back with probably a lack luster story just pretty much so we can kill her again down the road so I would agree I think she stays dead unless they come up with (and pardon my pun here) an amazing story which is always possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qrx2 View Post
    Hey new member long time Comicbook reader and I have to say Spider-man is my favorite.

    Due to the movie I've been going back and re-reading a lot of the Gwen stuff. Clearly had she not been there Peter Parker would not have become the person he did become and has probably made us love him as much as we do.

    I have to admit I am a little bit amazed by the fact that as many re-boots of the Spiderverse that they have done over the years that no one has ever tried to bring the real Gwen back at some point. There are lots of reasons we could come up with and they are valid on some level but I have a feeling that if someone felt like they could get the story write, which it would have to be, they would try because as much as some of us would hate the idea it would make a lot of money for Marvel at least short term.

    I'll also say from the time they committed to the marriage of Mary-Jane and Peter Parker till it ended they couldn't really bring back the real Gwen even if they wanted too because if they had no matter what you did some how Peter was going to end up looking like a jerk by either not being with Gwen or dumping his wife for Gwen. I do think now that they have ended the marriage (again a whole other argument on if they should have done that or not that I am sure has happened many times over here) that it does open the door a little more to try to bring back Gwen if some writer has the right story and is brave enough to try it. I am sure at some point someone probably will try it. I'll reserve my judgment till I see how the story is done.

    Personally as much as I like Gwen and I am sure they could come up with a good story to bring her back I am good with her being dead but I am also more of a Mary Jane fan than Gwen Stacy but that might have something to do with the fact I've grown up with Peter and Mary Jane my whole life as Gwen was dead before I was born and it wasn't till I was a young teenager that I even read some of the Gwen stuff for the first time.

    Also, the idea of bringing her back would destroy one of Peter Parker's greatest failures. With that said, in some ways she's re-telling the same story as Uncle Ben. As long as one or the other stays dead (and Ben needs to stay dead no matter what IMO) I think you can still have that moral grounding for Peter that both their deaths provide regardless of if the other was brought back to life.
    Actually J Michael Straczynski had brought up the idea of resurrecting Gwen within the OMD storyline, but if I remember correctly Joe Quesada shot down the idea. IMHO it doesn't have be that great a storyline in which to bring her back. In an earlier posting I proposed another OMD type story but this time instead of a malevolent superbeing like Mephisto trying to be destructive you could have a benevolent superbeing bring back Gwen to right a terrible injustice, or at least restore balance to a world where Norman Osborn is brought back and essentially gets away with murder. Gwen's return would be kind of a karmic counterweight!

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